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The moral panic over data centres is foolish

economist.com

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Re: The moral panic over data centres is foolish

#191

Post by bloaf »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #186
senordevnyc wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one would give a shit about two hundred golf courses being constructed in Texas. Even with the massive data center build out, existing golf courses today use more water than all projected data centers globally are expected to use in 2030. The water issue is completely farcical.

The issue isn't so much about water usage, but water pollution. Golf courses don't usually make the tap water undrinkable.

Golf courses do pollute:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...

Also, the "pollution" from data centers is just "major construction project temporarily disrupts water table" not "facility is pumping random chemicals into the water".

That is to say, nothing about next door neighbors to a major construction project getting mud out of their well for a little while is unique to datacenters.

Re: The moral panic over data centres is foolish

#192

Post by gruez »

rainsford wrote: post #189
milkshakes wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> data centers are purely extractive please, tell me more > people in the community, or at least in the surrounding area, will play golf there going to go out on a limb here and guess that net-net, a datacenter provides more benefits to a broader spectrum of society than a golf course does.

> going to go out on a limb here and guess that net-net, a datacenter provides more benefits to a broader spectrum of society than a golf course does. Is that true locally though? Having a golf course nearby your home is better than the golf course just existing somewhere, at least if you play golf, but that is decidedly not true of data centers. You might benefit from at least some of them existing, but derive very…

> Having a golf course nearby your home is better than the golf course just existing somewhere, at least if you play golf, but that is decidedly not true of data centers.

Isn't that the standard NIMBY argument, which ensures nothing ever gets built? Who wants a power plant, or dump near their house? Even if there's some vague local benefit (eg. a dump that benefits the county), you could always make the argument to put it on the other side of the county or whatever.

Re: The moral panic over data centres is foolish

#193

Post by gruez »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #185
lostmsu wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't rinse them after washing?

I don't apart from when I'm initially filling the washing up bowl and doing some cups and glasses. My theory is that the washing up water has less surface tension and thus runs off the crockery better when they're draining/drying.

Where does this leave us then? All the dishwashers include a rinse in their standard cycle, so should it be surprising that you can save water by cutting corners like not rinsing?

Re: The moral panic over data centres is foolish

#194

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

bloaf wrote: post #191
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't so much about water usage, but water pollution. Golf courses don't usually make the tap water undrinkable.

Golf courses do pollute: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... Also, the "pollution" from data centers is just "major construction project temporarily disrupts water table" not "facility is pumping random chemicals into the water". That is to say, nothing about next door neighbors to a major construction project getting mud out of their well for a little while is unique to datacenters.

I think you misunderstand me.

I did not say that golf courses are pollution free, but there is many degrees of magnitude difference between the mere possibility of illnesses becoming more common around golf courses and data centres that have to pay millions in fines as they are not following the rules.

I feel like you're constructing straw men arguments here despite the very obvious polluting behaviour of datacentres.

Re: The moral panic over data centres is foolish

#195

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

gruez wrote: post #193
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't apart from when I'm initially filling the washing up bowl and doing some cups and glasses. My theory is that the washing up water has less surface tension and thus runs off the crockery better when they're draining/drying.

Where does this leave us then? All the dishwashers include a rinse in their standard cycle, so should it be surprising that you can save water by cutting corners like not rinsing?

Dishwashing machines probably have more need to rinse the dishes as they are using more concentrated formulations. I don't know if it's safe to lick dishwasher tablets, but I hope it's safe to lick dishwashing liquid, though probably not very nice.

Re: The moral panic over data centres is foolish

#196

Post by verdverm »

pibaker wrote: post #180
skeledrew wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know in Singapore that they're pretty excited. They're teaching it in schools and the public is generally responding well, according to someone I know who's a citizen there.

> Or do they just not have political control at a local level?

This idea that people are somehow compelled to like Ai because they lack political power seems a false hubris. Do you know the CCP lets people protest some things, though certainly not party control?

Re: The moral panic over data centres is foolish

#198

Post by Grombobulous »

verdverm wrote: post #171
Grombobulous wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-Western populations (really, talking about China here) do not live in a democracy. The government centrally plans where they build things like data centers and homes and there is very little the populace can do about it. You cannot own land in China, you can only lease it. You can't even really talk politics in China in anything close to the same way you're allowed to in the US. People in China are also generally…

I'm not sure where you are pulling that bitcoin statement from, presenting it as a quote, but it is not mine. My understanding is the gas turbine generators are the thing creating noise. We've had data centers for decades, noise is only a problem this year, so something new is going on, extrapolation from isolated incidents to broad brush strokes

As I stated, the quote about bitcoin is from the article. I was criticizing the article, not your statements.

Re: The moral panic over data centres is foolish

#199

Post by cl42 »

jedberg wrote: post #37
cl42 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given your experience with data centers, what do you think of this quote from the article? > In any case, even the noise worry is overstated: many viral videos of supposed AI data centre noise are really Bitcoin mines, not state-of-the-art hyperscaler facilities. Are there really major differences between a hyperscaler, neocloud, and crypto mining data center in terms of noise pollution or other negative effects?

No, there really isn't. It's more a question of how the data center is cooled. There are quieter more expensive options, which is why they often aren't used.

Thanks, that makes sense. I wasn't sure why The Economist would make this distinction, though I can see why certain companies (e.g., 'poorer' non-hyperscalers) might opt for cheap/loud options.

Re: The moral panic over data centres is foolish

#200

Post by verdverm »

Grombobulous wrote: post #198
verdverm wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you are pulling that bitcoin statement from, presenting it as a quote, but it is not mine. My understanding is the gas turbine generators are the thing creating noise. We've had data centers for decades, noise is only a problem this year, so something new is going on, extrapolation from isolated incidents to broad brush strokes

As I stated, the quote about bitcoin is from the article. I was criticizing the article, not your statements.

thanks, it was unclear and reading is hard these days :x
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