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Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

cloudinabottle.org

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Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#291

Post by ItsYan »

Crabber wrote: post #279
jiaosdjf wrote: post #218

The cloud space is absurd, we've sat by for 2 decades while the likes of AWS define every aspect of deployment, auth, even containerisation. Containerisation was supposed to mean host anywhere, literally redeploy a complex set of services and their connections on any cloud provider at the drop of a hat. That is what a f**ing shipping container is, you rock up to any port in the world and the same container is lifted…

I think a lot of programmers in the industry just follow trends, they don't really understand the benefits and drawbacks of the technology they are using. I have coworkers who host personal projects for their own use and put them in docker, set up CI pipelines, host them on a cloud service, use an enterprise level database on the backend. One of my coworkers made a completely static portfolio website with a single pa…

I understand your viewpoint because but also have you considered that your approach adds nothing to the builder?

I don't mean this in a judgemental way. In your scenario, I spend learning 50 different technologies that I will never use because they are not hired for. Whereas the colleague makes 50 different projects, gets comfortable with the technology and maybe hits an interesting edge case or two to talk about at their next interview, if they are lucky.

I am saying this as someone, who has tried to think about complexity and what not in my projects. But it turns out that I get a lot more mileage from practicing deployment with k3s than know what Dokku and Kamal do and how to deploy the app directly as a process.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#292

Post by xorcist »

kursus wrote: post #195
creesch wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does being docker compose based make it inaccessible? Because it requires people to also have knowledge about the ins and outs of docker and docker compose. If we are talking about web applications it is yet another layer that has been added over the years. It used to be that you could fairly easily host most things on a old fashioned lamp host (I am talking decades ago) and all you had to know was basic file t…

> you could fairly easily host most things on a old fashioned lamp host (I am talking decades ago) and all you had to know was basic file transferring Setting up and maintaining a server is easier today than it was decades ago, A LAMP at this time meant a lot of manual setup, IaC wasn't a thing, reproducibility wasn't a goal, versioning was confidential, documentation was scarce and often outdated, out of the box sec…

> A LAMP at this time meant a lot of manual setup, IaC wasn't a thing,

I'm sorry but this is just nonsense. LAMP is called that because it was a very standardized thing. Pop in a Debian CD and select a ready made profile for it. There were even ready made installers for Windows and Mac if you weren't on an Internet native operating system.

A lot more people got by using custom bash scripts, but cfengine exited in the 90s. It's still not honest to say things were more manual. Take a look at /r/homelab or somewhere selfhosters hang out today and look at the Compose or self hosted K8s stacks people set up today. That's orders of magnitude more manual work than just popping in a CD and selecting LAMP.

Yes, those are not the same thing. Yes, a self hosted stack today consists of so much more than running PHP in a web server. But for self hosters, the amount of work required has objectively gone through the roof. That's a problem if your goal is data sovereignty.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#293

Post by mmlkrx »

bo1024 wrote: post #36

Cloudron does something very similar (I'm a user): https://www.cloudron.io/

Really happy with Cloudron as well. Have been using it since 2022 for a small business and personally. They recently added community apps so now there is an official way for the community to add apps that are not yet officially supported. Really amazing product and pretty rock solid have migrated a complete Cloudron installation from one server to another a couple of times without issues.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#294

Post by Groxx »

jongjong wrote: post #110
KomoD wrote: post #50

These guys have been spamming issues in repos trying to promote this project and no disclosure whatsoever that they are associated with the project. https://github.com/search?q=%22cloudinabottle.toml%22&type=i...

It's not spam if it's the first time I heard of it and it's useful. It shows they care about their project. This makes me want to try it out even more. Meta and Google can spam their unsolicited ads to a billion users but regular people aren't allowed to promote their own projects on niche forums? This is bs. You're the problem here. Self-promoting your harmful values. You're the spammer.

Spam is, rather definitionally, undesired marketing.

If they don't desire it, it's spam for them. And they rather clearly do not desire it.

(You could also go with the stronger "unrequested marketing" definition, which makes this even more "definitely spam". CAN-SPAM rules define it this way, so that seems fair too)

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#296

Post by Jnr »

hamdouni wrote: post #192
Jnr wrote: post #191

In the age of LLM agents, still going for Docker/Podmam on anything besides local development box seems like a weird choice. Docker has poor tooling for network level security between the containers, has issues with different runtimes per container, etc. It is just a bit primitive if you want to expose multiple services to the internet on the same server. One of those apps will get compromised and then all the others…

Skip kubernetes and deploy to bare server

Having separate bare server for each service would become quite expensive.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#297

Post by Jnr »

crabmusket wrote: post #197
Jnr wrote: post #191

In the age of LLM agents, still going for Docker/Podmam on anything besides local development box seems like a weird choice. Docker has poor tooling for network level security between the containers, has issues with different runtimes per container, etc. It is just a bit primitive if you want to expose multiple services to the internet on the same server. One of those apps will get compromised and then all the others…

> has issues with different runtimes per container Could you be more specific about that? > One of those apps will get compromised and then all the others will follow... Per their security docs, containers are rootless but I don't see anything about VLAN isolation. https://cloudinabottle.org/docs/how_it_works/security.html

Kubernetes supports multiple pluggable container runtimes per node. Can be quite useful when requiring some virtualization or running certain docker-in-docker scenarios for CI/CD workers. Maybe it can be done with Docker as well these days, but with kubernetes it is out of the box support.

Perhaps you could manually set up some VLANs and set up Docker networking to use those, but that has to be custom setup, none of that is a standard feature of Docker.

So instead of having to reinvent the wheel for each of those problems, you can just take kubernetes instead. And while it is a lot to learn, LLMs can make it a lot easier to do. For years I was running docker-compose stacks for self hosted things, but I replaced that once LLM agents became a bit less stupid. :)

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#299

Post by venusenvy47 »

creesch wrote: post #148
spockz wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does being docker compose based make it inaccessible? Self hosting implies having hardware and software knowledge to set it up. I agree, having a meta package that would set the system up as systemd would be an even lower barrier. But then again, there are podman commands that do this for you today anyway. Self hosting could also imply buying a device that just does this with an additional management interface fo…

> How does being docker compose based make it inaccessible? Because it requires people to also have knowledge about the ins and outs of docker and docker compose. If we are talking about web applications it is yet another layer that has been added over the years. It used to be that you could fairly easily host most things on a old fashioned lamp host (I am talking decades ago) and all you had to know was basic file t…

I don't like using Docker on a VPS because of the way it bypasses the firewall rules. It's such a pain that I avoid it altogether for anything public.

Re: Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

#300

Post by bigfudge »

tonymet wrote: post #287
jiaosdjf wrote: post #218

The cloud space is absurd, we've sat by for 2 decades while the likes of AWS define every aspect of deployment, auth, even containerisation. Containerisation was supposed to mean host anywhere, literally redeploy a complex set of services and their connections on any cloud provider at the drop of a hat. That is what a f**ing shipping container is, you rock up to any port in the world and the same container is lifted…

I agree with part of your complaint, and many cloud services are deliberate vendor lock in (e.g. “serverless”). But all the cloud vendors offer containers as a service, where you build your image locally and run it in a region. Naturally there will be setup to access networking, IO, gpus etc. so i think you have some fair claims but you’re not making the best case here.

Containers as a service are ludicrously expensive as a way to buy compute though. It’s just amazing how much a poxy 1cpu 1gb instance is on azure.
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