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Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

isaraerospace.com

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Re: Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

#121

Post by noir_lord »

nolok wrote: post #58
walrus01 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another and more immediate concern is that anything which contains subcomponents/subsystems or parts from US origin companies runs into ITAR and MTCR [1] issues with the US federal government. There's a number of very complex European origin final aviation/aerospace industry products which are laden with US-origin components. I wonder about exactly how "non-US" this Isar rocket is. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Agreed, the moment we allowed MBDA to put some american component in our (French) missiles made with european allies (Scalp, Meteor), the US blocked our sales to Egypt because they wanted to sell their own instead, using ITAR, forcing us to fix it for the french version. The US has repeatedly proven that ITAR is for them as much of a military thing as it is an economic one, and that they're willing to use it against…

I mean it's expected behaviour in one sense but in another it's becoming a bigger geopolitical risk to rely on the US for defence components/technology in the current world, the risk always existed, it's just shifted more one way.

There are a whole bunch of military suppliers across Europe who are in the same boat as MBDA.

Simply put, the US as an ally is less predictable than previously and that has knock-on effects across every sphere.

Re: Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

#122

Post by ph4rsikal »

pyrale wrote: post #60

Their press release seems to center on: > Europe now has sovereign access to space. [...] Customers around the world now have a sovereign launch option at their disposal. They apparently try very hard to ignore Arianespace.

Arianspace launches from French Guiana while a French commune is not really close to the actual continent of Europe.

Re: Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

#123

Post by dinfinity »

spwa4 wrote: post #119
_djo_ wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name any examples? European countries and the EU as a whole don't have an equivalent of the US's ITAR 'See-Through' rule, which lets the US control the usage of a system that has any US components. I'm not aware of any sale of a US weapons system containing European parts being blocked by any European government. It has been done within Europe, but only for major components, such as Germany's blocking at one…

The trivial example is the rules about selling weapons directly, so as a very simple example of this you could take: https://www.brusselstimes.com/153970/wallonia-faces-new-chal... But this is the one-component-is-the-weapon, with everything going in one direction version of such a rule. An F35 has 300,000 components from 19 countries, so you can imagine what a maze the agreements for that one are. It's also not just…

Your link is about limiting the sales of Belgian weapons on the basis of Belgian legislation.

Re: Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

#124

Post by TitaRusell »

noir_lord wrote: post #121
nolok wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the moment we allowed MBDA to put some american component in our (French) missiles made with european allies (Scalp, Meteor), the US blocked our sales to Egypt because they wanted to sell their own instead, using ITAR, forcing us to fix it for the french version. The US has repeatedly proven that ITAR is for them as much of a military thing as it is an economic one, and that they're willing to use it against…

I mean it's expected behaviour in one sense but in another it's becoming a bigger geopolitical risk to rely on the US for defence components/technology in the current world, the risk always existed, it's just shifted more one way. There are a whole bunch of military suppliers across Europe who are in the same boat as MBDA. Simply put, the US as an ally is less predictable than previously and that has knock-on effects…

The European and US weapons industry is heavily intertwined because of the cold war.

In hindsight the whole world should have planned for the "what if America goes Nazi" eventuality.

Re: Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

#125

Post by teiferer »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #46
nolok wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but although the crazies in charge have been very negative toward our continent and my country (Frace), they've also steered very clear away from any seizing claim about any of our territory, despite going against anyone from Canada to Denmark to Spain to UK, to ... Deep down, we're an annoyingly arrogant little country with delusions of grandeur salivating at the thought to prove to our EU neighbors how strong…

> Deep down, we're an annoyingly arrogant little country with delusions of grandeur ... The problem is France used to be the world's superpower, with an economy bigger than the one of the UK. Literally number one. Then the monarchy fell and all it took was a mere 15 years for that little arrogant man that Napoleon was to get its arse (and France's arse) handed to him in Waterloo in 1815. 15 years to throw away centur…

> 15 years to throw away centuries of greatness

Great for whom, exactly?

Re: Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

#126

Post by noir_lord »

TitaRusell wrote: post #124
noir_lord wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean it's expected behaviour in one sense but in another it's becoming a bigger geopolitical risk to rely on the US for defence components/technology in the current world, the risk always existed, it's just shifted more one way. There are a whole bunch of military suppliers across Europe who are in the same boat as MBDA. Simply put, the US as an ally is less predictable than previously and that has knock-on effects…

The European and US weapons industry is heavily intertwined because of the cold war. In hindsight the whole world should have planned for the "what if America goes Nazi" eventuality.

It's going to take time to unwind that and it's going to be a slow process (unless they do something so utterly stupid they make it a fast process).

Re: Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

#127

Post by consumer451 »

3838484884 wrote: post #101
consumer451 wrote: post #96

It might interest folks to learn: > Incidentally, the early investment for Isar came from Bülent Altan, the Turkish ex-SpaceX guy who was in charge of the guidance system for Falcon-1, Falcon-9 and Dragon. [0] It turns out that Altan was an angel investor in Isar, and then co-founded VC firm Alpine Space Ventures [1] and continued to invest in Isar, among other space ventures in Europe. [0] https://news.ycombinator.c…

[dead]

That was not my point. I was thinking more along the lines of SpaceX alumni are creating a lot of really cool stuff. Tesla alumni as well.

That might actually be Musk's greatest contribution, frfr.

I would love to see some real data on this.

Re: Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

#128

Post by teiferer »

nolok wrote: post #4

Congratulation and great news ! For Europe, but also the world, space access is one of those frontiers we can (and I believe will) see truly opened in my lifetime and I find that truly awesome. Interestingly there still seems to be a difference in approach between "few launch, expected to go well" in europe and "many launch as trial and error" in the US, with other countries falling somewhere in between those two lim…

> > Europe now has sovereign access to space.

> I understand what is meant here, and of course said company need to push that forward, but French Guyana is full french territory, it's not even a foreign territory.

Does French Guyana have a usable space rocket? Cause if not then you are completely missing the point of what "space access" means here. It's not about a spot from where to start the rockets. It's about being able to build them. No matter French Guyana or Norway or central Berlin.

And that's obvious to everybody including yourself, so why you opened the French-nationalist angle here with lots of angry messages with all sorts of politics is unclear to everybody watching.

Re: Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

#129

Post by kelipso »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #70
kelipso wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he signed a declaration of intent to do that if a peace deal with Russia is made Interesting. Thanks for letting me know a Ukraine-Russia peace deal will never be signed.

That’s a pretty childish take on a serious subject.

No, it’s a very strong indicator that a peace deal will never be signed until unconditional surrender. Because concerns about NATO troops in Ukraine is main reason why Russia started this.

Re: Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

#130

Post by numpad0 »

_djo_ wrote: post #114
spwa4 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regularly, yes. On a lot of these sorts of products, nothing happens without governments making deals first. Mostly because governments have a need to make sure they get weapons too, not just money for the components they make. Perhaps should be described as "sale is forbidden by default, but deals are common". This goes 100% for either completed weapons, or components that can be directly used as a weapon, then you…

Can you name any examples? European countries and the EU as a whole don't have an equivalent of the US's ITAR 'See-Through' rule, which lets the US control the usage of a system that has any US components. I'm not aware of any sale of a US weapons system containing European parts being blocked by any European government. It has been done within Europe, but only for major components, such as Germany's blocking at one…

Things like Wassenaar Arrangement and MTCR(that applies to a lot of hobby stuffs I'm interested in) are multinational and global. The US implementation is the most painful, but they're like non-Linux unices, sameish in concept and not like first-worlders get free passes.

(And these regs aren't complete nonsense; the technologies regulated by these are useful for guided munitions. It just so happens missile technologies are fully commoditized by now and also happens to be immensely useful for totally peaceful purposes too)

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassenaar_Arrangement

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Technology_Control_Reg...

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