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Music Theory for Programmers

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Re: Music Theory for Programmers

#151

Post by odyssey7 »

Crabber wrote: post #147
odyssey7 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. Models tend to be imperfect, and music theory is definitely no exception to that rule, and we attempt to model music because we care about the underlying phenomenon (music). As someone who enjoys listening to music, creating music, and music theory, I'd characterize the latter as providing a specialized vocabulary; an approach to listening, since words in the vocabulary represent concepts that you can he…

Fair points, I should probably disclose that my comment is perhaps one of those "looking like I'm giving advice to other people but really just giving advice to myself" kind of comments :) I have began learning instruments before and fell into the trap of asking too many "why" questions and then just got lost in music theory that a) didn't make too much logical sense and b) didn't help me actually get better at an in…

Yes, I agree, the rabbit hole is real. It has taken many people away from their initial intention of making music. If you're a musician first and foremost, music theory can be a trap. Although, Alice in Wonderland also shows us the intrinsic value of a good rabbit hole.

Edit: Also, what you mention about "why" is true. The models attempt to organize observations of conscious experiences into mathematical and logical frameworks, though they cannot ultimately explain the causes for those connections. The causes of the qualia remain mysterious. Musicians tend to be particularly in tune with how their own experiences connect to music, so some are enthralled to explore that connection itself.

Re: Music Theory for Programmers

#152

Post by xcf_seetan »

polotics wrote: post #16

Let us try an experiment shall we: listen to any music you like and try and match the information the article provided to the complexity of what you are hearing. How much do you see a path from A(rticle) to S(ound in your ear). This article is trivializing music down to a few not-so-important facts and mistaking some math for anything that would help `programmers` (?) understand music. Maybe start by rewatching "This…

Try Edgar Varese, Iannis Xenakis or Arnold Schoenberg and tell me how much do you see a path from A(rticle) to S(ound in your ear).

Re: Music Theory for Programmers

#153

Post by runarberg »

seanhunter wrote: post #31

This is (mostly) not music theory and what is music theory is mostly wrong or incomplete to the point of being wildly misleading. Source: have degree and postgrad in music, was a professional musician until RSI put paid to that career, wife is a professional musician and teaches to postgrad level at 2 conservertoires, most of our friends are professional musicians, have a house full of scores and music books. If you…

I started learning guitar last July, and I wanted to learn music theory (and standard notation) from day 1.

I am following Absolutely Understand Guitar[1] as my music theory lessons (and Hal Leonard method for notation) along side my regular tutorials. So far I am very impressed. Quite beginner friendly, and learning music theory while starting out with the instrument has not been difficult for me at least.

1: https://www.absolutelyunderstandguitar.com/

Re: Music Theory for Programmers

#155

Post by Crabber »

odyssey7 wrote: post #151
Crabber wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair points, I should probably disclose that my comment is perhaps one of those "looking like I'm giving advice to other people but really just giving advice to myself" kind of comments :) I have began learning instruments before and fell into the trap of asking too many "why" questions and then just got lost in music theory that a) didn't make too much logical sense and b) didn't help me actually get better at an in…

Yes, I agree, the rabbit hole is real. It has taken many people away from their initial intention of making music. If you're a musician first and foremost, music theory can be a trap. Although, Alice in Wonderland also shows us the intrinsic value of a good rabbit hole. Edit: Also, what you mention about "why" is true. The models attempt to organize observations of conscious experiences into mathematical and logical…

I think the internet makes this worse because I've noticed a lot of music content on youtube is theory related. But I think that's probably because of this bias the internet in general has of "you only see videos about things it's possible to make content about". What I mean by that is it's not possible to make a 10 minute video on "just sit down and play your instrument". But you can make 50 videos on theory.

Don't know if this phenomenon has a name, but I've thought about it before. Social media is filled with posts of people buying things. Because it's not really possible to make a video showing off something you decided not to buy. Same thing with music and people constantly buying gear. "I'm using the same guitar I've had for 10 years and decided to just sit down and practice for 2 hours this evening like the 2000 other evenings before" doesn't make good content.

Re: Music Theory for Programmers

#156

Post by coldtea »

seanhunter wrote: post #31

This is (mostly) not music theory and what is music theory is mostly wrong or incomplete to the point of being wildly misleading. Source: have degree and postgrad in music, was a professional musician until RSI put paid to that career, wife is a professional musician and teaches to postgrad level at 2 conservertoires, most of our friends are professional musicians, have a house full of scores and music books. If you…

A counter argument to the typical "piss on TFA" HN top voted comment: (musician of many decades) the post IS music theory of the kind it purports to be, it's not misleading in the least, at worst it's incomplete (but never claimed to be complete) and simplified.

It's just not conventional music theory (which is just a set of rules thrown at you). But the whole point that the parent missed, is that it is told in a way to arrive to music theory from first principles as understood by computer programmers and math nerds.

Any statement made in TFA is true (at least to a basic level, and, for some of claims, when focusing on western music).

You'll learn nothing of the sort you learn in TFA by reading "The Jazz Theory book" suggested by the parent. The opening paragraphs of TFA explicitly address why that doesn't cut it:

"The problem was never the practice. It was that every explanation of music theory seemed to miss out the fundamental reasons for how and why things are the way they are. Here is a staff. Here are the notes on it. This is a major scale, memorise the pattern. Why those notes? Why that pattern? Because that is the convention. Which is a strange way to teach a system that essentially comes out of physics and arithmetic. There are twelve notes for a reason. The major scale has the shape it has for a reason. Chords that sound good sound good for a reason, and you can compute those reasons."

The parent comment is stuck on trying to sell the conventional music theory nomenclature and its extensions, which, despite the name "theory", is a descriptive set of norms and rules based on historical practices.

The author of the above comment's "postgrad in music" and experience in conservertoires make then unable to see the worth of TFA, because they're too invested in the conventional description and "how things are done".

If you want to understand music theory as a construction, not merely as "here's a set of arbitrary rules and other rules that build on them", ignore jazz/classical musicians and people with music degrees trying to sell you on what they've been taught, as it will be near useless. This requires a different type of mindset.

There are books on musicology that address the concerns of TFA in an official and deep way, but TFA is a good programming-nerd oriented introduction to the matter.

Re: Music Theory for Programmers

#157

Post by bossyTeacher »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #140
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's sound design theory, not music theory. They're not the same thing. Music theory is about chords, scales, rhythm, and - most importantly and elusively - how to fit them together to say something interesting. Entry-level trad Western Theory gives you the concept of a basic grammar as a first introduction, but once you have that you can extend it fairly painlessly to jazz/funk/metal/pop/whatever. Advanced classic…

I am missing the part where TFA said that the goal was to help with "basic song writing". And what is "distracting level of nerdery" to someone can be the key that helps unlock a deeper level of understanding to someone else. I thought we understood neurodivergence a little better these days. The western theory stuff you describe has almost no relevance at all when considered non-western musical cultures. The content…

> The western theory stuff you describe has almost no relevance at all when considered non-western musical cultures.

Say it louder for those at the back. People keep forgetting that western theory was unable to explain why the blues (the American music form by excellence) worked at all. And arguably, a lot of the western music theory is more akin to a codification of existing musical practices in the western world rather than some scientific model. But a lot of music theory fans seem to dogmatically treat it as THE science of ALL music.

Re: Music Theory for Programmers

#158

Post by ur-whale »

> Which is a strange way to teach a system that essentially comes out of physics and arithmetic

Oh boy, couldn't agree more, this has been a lifelong frustration for me as well:

I've always been completely stumped by the utter lack of curiosity most musicians seem to have about that.

There's a convention, just learn it, why IHN would you want to ask questions about this?

Who cares about things like first principles anyways.

Re: Music Theory for Programmers

#159

Post by odyssey7 »

Crabber wrote: post #155
odyssey7 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree, the rabbit hole is real. It has taken many people away from their initial intention of making music. If you're a musician first and foremost, music theory can be a trap. Although, Alice in Wonderland also shows us the intrinsic value of a good rabbit hole. Edit: Also, what you mention about "why" is true. The models attempt to organize observations of conscious experiences into mathematical and logical…

I think the internet makes this worse because I've noticed a lot of music content on youtube is theory related. But I think that's probably because of this bias the internet in general has of "you only see videos about things it's possible to make content about". What I mean by that is it's not possible to make a 10 minute video on "just sit down and play your instrument". But you can make 50 videos on theory. Don't…

All too true.

Something along these lines, people who would like to improve their musical abilities sometimes procrastinate by doing music theory instead. It's safe and it's introspective. And it's authoritative---a legitimate and difficult subject---so there's the potential to feel falsely reassured that you're not wasting time. In a sense, it avoids the more difficult act of creation. This seems to be especially more likely for those who would have wanted to write music.

I.e., "drink responsibly." Perhaps music theory classes should come with a warning label, like the Mirror of Erised. You can stare into it endlessly and produce nothing.

Re: Music Theory for Programmers

#160

Post by [deleted] »

seanhunter wrote: post #31

This is (mostly) not music theory and what is music theory is mostly wrong or incomplete to the point of being wildly misleading. Source: have degree and postgrad in music, was a professional musician until RSI put paid to that career, wife is a professional musician and teaches to postgrad level at 2 conservertoires, most of our friends are professional musicians, have a house full of scores and music books. If you…

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