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Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

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Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#541

Post by DANmode »

hakunin wrote: post #539
DANmode wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Observant people pointing out corruption is not corruption Both your interpretation of my position, and your expression of your own, are indecipherable by any charitable standard. Make more sense, sooner.

How do we determine that there’s corruption? If we did that by just pointing out that something looks or feels like it, why not treat all crime this way? There is a reason we created a judicial system. Things very often look and feel completely not how they really are. There exists unprosecuted corruption for sure, just like any other crime, but claiming that it’s somehow happening on an outsized scale vs expected no…

> Listening to people pointing it out who have everything to gain from selling this narrative?

Sorry - what are you implying I have to gain from “selling this narrative”?

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#542

Post by hackernud3s »

bluGill wrote: post #371
hackernud3s wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a scapegoat then?

It is from the Bible and the old testiment law. A goat were prepared for sacrifice (part of a much more complex ritual that I'm skipping), but then lead out in the wilderness and released instead of killed.

It's someone that gets blamed despite not being responsible, Do you agree?

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#543

Post by autoexec »

hakunin wrote: post #528
autoexec wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying “US corruption isn’t new” is a truism. There are probably isolated incidents, and many unproven theories, but everyone is quick to agree with this statement because it’s a common feeling everyone has now for some reason. The reality of corruption is likely much smaller and more boring than people think. Corruption in the US been extensively documented and proven. The revolving door at regulatory bodies, dark…

You listed a bunch of things only some of which are bad, and none of which are clearly corrupt. Did you know that things can be bad, and still not corrupt? When you delete a customer database at work, it doesn't have to be because you're corrupt. You're believing conjecture, because it makes you feel smarter, like you can see through the facade. The reality is that you're probably afraid to come off naive. We have to…

> You listed a bunch of things only some of which are bad, and none of which are clearly corrupt.

Charitably, you might be using a different definition of corruption than most of the world uses. Even if we limit ourselves to only a narrow definition of only political corruption, the abuse of government power for private gain, most of what I listed would still be (sometimes literally) textbook examples of it. The revolving door, dark money, "kids for cash", no-bid contracts, Teapot Dome, these are examples of how we've seen bribery and cronyism play out in the Untied States. Voter suppression for example is a form of electoral corruption. While you're welcome to play at semantics or choose your own definitions for what you feel is and isn't corruption, claiming that "none of the things" listed were "clearly corrupt" is simply false.

I think we'd agree that a worker deleting a database doesn't have to be corruption, but that also doesn't mean it can never be an act of corruption either. I'm not talking about conjecture, just documented history, some of it recent. There are people in prison right now for their roles in it and many others who should have been, or who should still be, locked up for it, but who have escaped justice because of corruption.

It's difficult to imagine what "real ones" would even look like to you personally, but be assured that to the rest of us the US has a very long and well documented history of real corruption.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#544

Post by stinkbeetle »

lovich wrote: post #532
stinkbeetle wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no, I don't need evidence that governments are dirty hives of corrupt incompetent criminals, leeches, and parasites.

What exactly did you mean by > Yes possibly so I'd have to see the evidence for that,… Then?

All the comments I have written in this thread have been addressing the comment they replied to.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#545

Post by DANmode »

hakunin wrote: post #526
DANmode wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we had before is a normal amount of corruption. There's no such thing as having zero crime. These two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Also, “normal” isn’t good. In fact, “normal” often seems like a horrible bar to aim for. > Corruption that actually meaningfully hurts the country and the world at scale (in recent history) only started with this administration. You don’t do the sort of systemic damage observa…

Observant people pointing out corruption is not corruption. Real prosecuted corruption exists. That's why we have courts. Otherwise, it's conjecture that everyone is too eager to believe. Any behavior that can be explained, among other things, with corruption, is just added to the roster, because being cynical protects you from accidentally coming off foolish or naive. But it isn't serious. This is the first time in…

> you should figure out what a world with zero crime would look like.

Not zero, but relative near-zero, is possible through exactly two paths.

The one you’re validly warning against (surveillance state),

but also: tightly-knit communities with few-enough outside visitors.

Note that this can include neighborhoods in rural US or urban Italy.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#546

Post by laughing_man »

autoexec wrote: post #8

Corruption in the US isn't new, but it's never been done as openly as it has been recently. I don't think it's a good thing. It shows that the government isn't concerned about what the public thinks, which suggests that they believe they no longer have to be. That's not a healthy sign for what's supposed to be a democracy.

Part of the problem is we've essentially made corruption legal, at least for Congress. In the past if you gave a million dollars in cash to your Congressman, he stood a good chance of getting caught and arrested. But these days it's just normal for wealthy people, companies, and pressure groups to donate large sums of money to political campaigns.

Then the money gets laundered through book sales. We're all supposed to pretend that money isn't affecting votes, but come on.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#547

Post by scott_w »

potamic wrote: post #274
scott_w wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they’re not examples of corruption. Did Bush or Biden seek to profit from their actions financially? Not that I know of, unless you have proof showing what and how.

Corruption is not limited to financial profit. There are many ways to engage in acts of self interest like grant personal agenda, favours to friends/donors, quid-pro-quo etc.

That’s not an answer to the question. How did any of these presidents profit, financially or not, from their actions regarding Iraq or the 2008 financial crisis? What was the quid pro quo they received?

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#548

Post by torstenvl »

budman1 wrote: post #406
grebc wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dick Cheney. Edit: I don’t really care though, I’m not a US citizen. Trump is terrible still. Shouldn’t have voted him in. :shrug:

You can dislike Cheney's actions while in office, but I don't remember any scandals where he put money in his pocket.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburton

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#549

Post by lovich »

stinkbeetle wrote: post #544
lovich wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly did you mean by > Yes possibly so I'd have to see the evidence for that,… Then?

All the comments I have written in this thread have been addressing the comment they replied to.

You were not clear at all, I am asking for clarification. I thought that `atmavatar's question was clearly in response to your statement and you are saying it is not.

Assume I am ignorant to the context of this conversation if need be. What were you referencing when you made your claim to needing evidence?

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#550

Post by selfhoster1312 »

hakunin wrote: post #490
selfhoster1312 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, i really dislike your argument. So instead of cleaning their acts on corruption, war crimes, and other abuses, the Democrats should just be held accountable to nothing because Trump is worse? I'm sorry but your mindset is precisely what got Trump elected. The democrats abandoned the working people, propped up the military industrial complex even more, and enriched CEOs and bankers. Trump propaganda is not the re…

No, what got Trump elected is both the republicans falling in line en masse, and the lefty populists backstabbing democrats the entire time it was happening. This is why republicans support DSA — it helps democrats lose. Mainstream democrats who actually know how to govern unfortunately don't have great rhetorical skills, easy slogans and sound bites, or the social media skills required to fight back against populist…

What you call "normal" democrats are not solving problems for most people and are not in good faith. They maximized social inequalities since Bill Clinton and deregulated anything that was meant to protect people. That's not "good at governing", unless governing very narrowly means serving the elites.

Some things are not simple, and i'm really not a DSA fan (they're too mild in many regards to solve the problems we're facing) so i'm not really in their rabbit hole. But DSA is not what i'd call populist; they're making realistic and mild social promises based on rational/scientific study of solutions (and seeing what worked in the USA in the past, and what works in other countries, such as 100% free healthcare).

You, on the other hand, seem to be down a rabbit hole where making billions of people suffer for your little privilege is just business as usual and asking questions is dangerous. Things are not simple, but they're definitely simpler if someone tries to actually solve them which no mainstream politician is actually doing. Here in France, it took dozens of thousands of workers with guns post-WWII to have free healthcare for all, and it's been working surprisingly well ever since (although to be fair, since absorbed and reformed by the State, much less so).

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