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I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

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Re: I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

#71

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

globular-toast wrote: post #52
throw839948499 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most people would want a wife Are you sure about that? Maybe that was true in 1970ties or even yearly 2000, but today stats are pretty clear: most men do not want a wife! Modern women have ethical troubles with making even simple sandwich. Tons of legal risks. 60% people today are overweight and on mental medication... And fathers in families today are portraited as a homer simpson! All the stuff wife brinks to the…

Well, they probably want one, as in the essay, but have just accepted they can't have one and moved on with their lives.

Maybe, I'm not sure.

Realistically, you meet with one, two, three potential candidates and you realize it's not what you need and want. You could have them, it's just the disadvantages are too high.

Re: I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

#72

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

skeptical1884 wrote: post #3

In a similar vein to this essay, I want to be a father so badly. I love being a woman, and am satisfied with the machinery I have been given. But having to be the incubator means I am saddle with the full brunt of the responsibility and expectation once the baby is born. I go from woman to mother. And with it comes judgement and duties, and goes freedom and care-free living. I want to be a father so I can raise a kid…

I feel you but this kind of discourse only polarizes the already divided society. Mothers face a lot of difficulties, and fathers also do. Arguing whose fate is worse seems really unproductive, what makes sense is looking forward and working towards diminishing the effects of these disadvantages.

What you wrote above is just unfair.

Re: I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

#73

Post by hypfer »

sersi wrote: post #70
hypfer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tbf, that's a very "modern"-ish way of viewing the idea of "committing". And there are good reasons for that, of course, but with that thinking, you're always going to be not fully there, which might be harmful in different ways than the ways it tries to protect against. It's a hard problem to solve, because Humans and interpersonal stuff is hard, but, ideally, one would frontload the friction, so that there is no ne…

Sure in our modern era there are a lot more divorce and it's probably partly because people are less inclined to make efforts to stay in a relationship. But there's also statistically less abuse and domestic violence and that's partly because women by and large have a lot more options than they used to. I don't think the trade off of having less divorce and more long lasting relationships is worth the increase of dom…

> there are a lot more divorce

That is not what I was talking about. Mainly because it's a dumb talking point.

You've I think replied to what you expected one would write and not to what was written.

Re: I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

#74

Post by keiferski »

hypfer wrote: post #18
disdegeneration wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social mechanics to decouple woman permanently from reproduction are already in the making. Incubators and AI educators and people can have children with a company, the rest of the social problems (the social network harem effect) then go out the window. If you need to be a millionaire to have a conventional family, tradition is out, corporate cloning is in. The working alternative to religious fundamentalism.

This comment was dead on arrival, but I've vouched for it, because I believe it's interesting. I do not believe the conspiracy part, but I do also believe that this decoupling will happen eventually. It seems like the logical conclusion of the trajectory we're on. Leaving biological reality behind in the pursuit of individualism. It might be a good thing, but we might also find that we were not ready for the total fr…

Check out a book called Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?

It’s looking far more likely that traditional approaches to these questions will become more popular with time, simply because the people that have kids don’t have the opinions you’ve mentioned here.

Which makes a lot of sense in a cultural evolution sense - you wouldn’t really expect individualism to outcompete group activity on a long timeline.

Re: I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

#75

Post by Jtarii »

anal_reactor wrote: post #39

Eh. I'm just tired of feminism. It promised equality but instead brought the gender war while driving down salaries.

There has always been a gender war, throughout the entirety of human existence.

You just don't like that women have won a few battles recently.

Re: I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

#76

Post by globular-toast »

anal_reactor wrote: post #39

Eh. I'm just tired of feminism. It promised equality but instead brought the gender war while driving down salaries.

Yeah, I'm not sure on balance it's been a good thing. It's doubled the number of wage slaves and created bitterness amongst them. Now they all get to come home to an unclean house with no food, fork out for someone else to raise their children and even walk their dogs. Perhaps the baby was thrown out with bathwater to some degree?

Even the apparent victories of feminism are somewhat dubious.

For example, the female vote. People love to talk about how women had to fight to get the vote, but they never talk about men. In the UK, men got the vote only 10 years before women (1918 vs 1928). Prior to this, only some men and, yes, women, had the vote. It took almost 100 years for all men to get the vote, and an additional 10 for women.

I want to live in a fair and equitable society. Everyone deserves a chance. I just don't see how forcing women into the workforce has anything to do with that.

Re: I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

#77

Post by konart »

skeptical1884 wrote: post #3

In a similar vein to this essay, I want to be a father so badly. I love being a woman, and am satisfied with the machinery I have been given. But having to be the incubator means I am saddle with the full brunt of the responsibility and expectation once the baby is born. I go from woman to mother. And with it comes judgement and duties, and goes freedom and care-free living. I want to be a father so I can raise a kid…

>I go from woman to mother. And with it comes judgement and duties, and goes freedom and care-free living.

Agree on judgement, but duties and freedom and care-free living?

Sorry, both are gone for fathers too. At least those who care (talking as a father here).

Sure, a woman has even less freedom for a few years after a child is born. And a caring partner will try to at least ease this period for a woman.

But rest of a time? It's pretty 50/50 in my experience. My wife (also a backend dev like myself) has her career and her free time, in our family we share cleaning duties and all the cooking is on me (both because I'm better at it and it's less of a burden for me).

I'd like to eliminate judgement (and event more often self-judgement) she sometime faces, but for now I have no solution to present.

Bottom line: it's a fantasy to thing that a responsible father just carries on with whatever life he had before the kid was born and just occasionally fetches one from school to have a few word on the go.

Re: I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

#78

Post by globular-toast »

petesergeant wrote: post #32
bill_joy_fanboy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption that being a father is easy denies the lived experience of fathers. How would she know whether being a father is easy or not? She's never been one.

She would know that in her society there are different sets of expectations about fathers than mothers, and that seems to be what she's aiming at? Are you sure you're not over-reading into what she actually wrote?

Then she would do well to look inwards and try to understand why that is. We all have to play the hand we are dealt. The sooner one realises this, the sooner one can begin the path to happiness.

"My soul, will you ever be good, simple, individual, bare, brighter than the body that covers you? Will you ever taste the disposition to love and affection? Will you ever be complete and free of need, missing nothing, desiring nothing live or lifeless for the enjoyment of pleasure? Or time for longer enjoyment, or amenity of place, space, and climate? Or good company? No, will you not rather be satisfied with your present state and take pleasure in all that is presently yours? Will you not convince yourself that all your experience comes from the gods, that all is well and all will be well for you, all that the gods see fit to give you, now and hereafter, in the maintenance of that perfect Being which is good and just and beautiful, which generates all things, sustains and contains all things, embraces all things as they dissolve into the generation of others like them? Will you ever be such as to share the society of gods and men without any criticism of them or condemnation by them?" -- Marcus Aurelius

Re: I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

#79

Post by AndrewDucker »

globular-toast wrote: post #78
petesergeant wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She would know that in her society there are different sets of expectations about fathers than mothers, and that seems to be what she's aiming at? Are you sure you're not over-reading into what she actually wrote?

Then she would do well to look inwards and try to understand why that is. We all have to play the hand we are dealt. The sooner one realises this, the sooner one can begin the path to happiness. "My soul, will you ever be good, simple, individual, bare, brighter than the body that covers you? Will you ever taste the disposition to love and affection? Will you ever be complete and free of need, missing nothing, desiri…

We are not "dealt a hand". There are many possibilities, and the idea that you have to take the simplest, most obvious, one is largely false. There are other people in this thread talking about how they did things differently.

Re: I Want a Wife (1971) [pdf]

#80

Post by petesergeant »

globular-toast wrote: post #78
petesergeant wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She would know that in her society there are different sets of expectations about fathers than mothers, and that seems to be what she's aiming at? Are you sure you're not over-reading into what she actually wrote?

Then she would do well to look inwards and try to understand why that is. We all have to play the hand we are dealt. The sooner one realises this, the sooner one can begin the path to happiness. "My soul, will you ever be good, simple, individual, bare, brighter than the body that covers you? Will you ever taste the disposition to love and affection? Will you ever be complete and free of need, missing nothing, desiri…

I wonder if you understand that your comment essentially amounts to "those disadvantaged by prejudice should simply accept their place"
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