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Can AI design circuit boards yet?

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Re: Can AI design circuit boards yet?

#121

Post by ninkendo »

kennyadam wrote: post #79
CyLith wrote: post #27

A personal data point: I had Claude Opus 4.8 design a fairly textbook circuit that outputs a monochrome image burned in an EEPROM over standard 640x480 VGA using only 74 series logic and GALs. It designed the circuit and GAL code, and I did the routing, and got it made through JLC for $6. After it came back, there was one error that was not caught, which I could blue-wire, and it works just fine otherwise. I was fair…

Are there any resources anyone could share that explain how LLMs can do things like design functioning circuits from next token prediction? I am totally baffled by how the models can complete so many varied and complex tasks without an actual understanding of what they're doing. I saw a post about models posting on forums, chatting together about how to complete tasks. Behaviour that seems totally, well, human. Yet,…

My 2¢:

When google trained a neural net on Go moves, using some text notation for them, with no other vocabulary of any kind, just predict the next go move, they noticed a representation of a Go board had essentially formed in the network, all on its own. It had never “seen” a go board, or had one explained, but they could map neuron states to go board squares pretty much 1:1.

I truly think that LLM’s with hundreds of billions of parameters in their neural networks have all kinds of hidden “models” of things that arise from the simple act of predicting tokens. We’ve seen that the hidden layers in their networks model all sorts of program execution state for instance, when they’re working on coding tasks.

“Predict the next token” is a way of shaping/reshaping the neural network until it actually develops models of the things you’re giving it. Like the go board example. And I would wager that it has a compounding effect: once you have some useful models in the network, they can unlock the creation of other models, and so on.

Re: Can AI design circuit boards yet?

#122

Post by thenthenthen »

amelius wrote: post #2

I'm excited by the option in Astra to route PCBs. The next pain-point is sourcing the components from Digikey, LCSC, etc., and finding suitable substitutes if necessary. Of course this assumes the LLMs can already read datasheets because that's the biggest pain-point in designing electronics. It's like filling out tax forms. Finally it would be great if LLMs could extract simulation models from datasheets!

Apparently this can source from LCSC: https://github.com/mixelpixx/KiCAD-MCP-Server Now how to hook it up to my Tencent ai thing…

Re: Can AI design circuit boards yet?

#123

Post by conductr »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #120
a2ff6eeb0 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's exciting. How long do you think it's going to be when electrical engineering is mostly going to be about verification of AI designs, and what are the tools out there to enable that?

Electrical engineering will involve humans making specifications for a while the same way we do vibe software engineering today. Board design and layout will change but electrical engineering is about more than that. For tools, I think the LLMs will outpace companies who built specialized tooling for this over the last couple years. Every six months we will see more progress than we saw in the last few years - for qu…

The barrier for me as a hobbyist is always learning the tools. Same for game design. Text is a better interface than learning CAD, KiCAD, Blender, etc. None of those things feel user friendly to people that don’t want to make a career out of it. To the point I usually just jump on fivver and hire someone to do a pair design session. Problem with that is cost sometimes, but also the difficulty of mobilization (find someone, agree on price, align calendars) and also the difficulty of changes because you have mobilize again to some degree, if some time goes by you may not even be able to reach the person. I also find it difficult when I want to do something unusual or non-standard. I usually know what standard is, and have decided I like something else instead, and I don’t really like a human critic of the decision when they don’t understand my reasoning. I find this happens in nearly all design; architects, engineers, etc.

I welcome this opportunity to pivot to a process I can control a bit more without having to really learn the tools.

Re: Can AI design circuit boards yet?

#124

Post by SequoiaHope »

conductr wrote: post #123
SequoiaHope wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electrical engineering will involve humans making specifications for a while the same way we do vibe software engineering today. Board design and layout will change but electrical engineering is about more than that. For tools, I think the LLMs will outpace companies who built specialized tooling for this over the last couple years. Every six months we will see more progress than we saw in the last few years - for qu…

The barrier for me as a hobbyist is always learning the tools. Same for game design. Text is a better interface than learning CAD, KiCAD, Blender, etc. None of those things feel user friendly to people that don’t want to make a career out of it. To the point I usually just jump on fivver and hire someone to do a pair design session. Problem with that is cost sometimes, but also the difficulty of mobilization (find so…

Ya that makes sense. I will say tho that for things like mechanical CAD, text is extremely limiting. But yeah the learning curve is real and you can’t learn it all. I’ve started trying a bit of LLM assisted mechanical design, but I am basically too skilled there to accept what it is doing. I want to keep trying tho, I like learning how these things can work.

And yeah I always imagined hiring a PCB designer to help but it always seemed like a lot. To have a reliable tool I can use any time I want is wonderful.

Re: Can AI design circuit boards yet?

#125

Post by a2ff6eeb0 »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #120
a2ff6eeb0 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's exciting. How long do you think it's going to be when electrical engineering is mostly going to be about verification of AI designs, and what are the tools out there to enable that?

Electrical engineering will involve humans making specifications for a while the same way we do vibe software engineering today. Board design and layout will change but electrical engineering is about more than that. For tools, I think the LLMs will outpace companies who built specialized tooling for this over the last couple years. Every six months we will see more progress than we saw in the last few years - for qu…

So, basically, in a few years, humans say what spectrum a device may operate in, AI figures out how to make it, and humans check that AI didn't fuck up?

Given, say, 4 more years (ie, same as time from initial ChatGPT to today), what level of spec do you think humans will be giving?

Re: Can AI design circuit boards yet?

#126

Post by igor47 »

I worked on this product, which is available free for personal use: https://www.jitx.com/

I recommend the CLI, which I wrote specially to enable an easy LLM workflow: https://docs.jitx.com/en/latest/getting-started/cli/index.ht...

There's a companion Claude skill: https://github.com/JITx-Inc/jitx-skills

I would bet that using this, you could get pretty close to shippable PCB on first try. This is being used by some pretty big players to design complicated high frequency boards, and that's the main focus of the product, but it can handle basic designs just fine.

Re: Can AI design circuit boards yet?

#127

Post by SequoiaHope »

a2ff6eeb0 wrote: post #125
SequoiaHope wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electrical engineering will involve humans making specifications for a while the same way we do vibe software engineering today. Board design and layout will change but electrical engineering is about more than that. For tools, I think the LLMs will outpace companies who built specialized tooling for this over the last couple years. Every six months we will see more progress than we saw in the last few years - for qu…

So, basically, in a few years, humans say what spectrum a device may operate in, AI figures out how to make it, and humans check that AI didn't fuck up? Given, say, 4 more years (ie, same as time from initial ChatGPT to today), what level of spec do you think humans will be giving?

Yes I think generative board design will become better packaged, trained, and validated, and that it will be common place for electrical engineers to rely more on these tools. Major vendors like Altium will add tools like this and their use will become commonplace in industry. For hobbyists, you will be able to specify a board design in natural language and have it completed with unprecedented ease. I’m excited to help my raver friends make wearable glowie things.

I find it hard to predict what technology will be like in four years, but the next major leap for these tools will be higher level system specification and integrated design. What you want is not a circuit board what you want is a product. The tools will bring multiple functions together and fully integrated iterative design will accelerate development.

Despite the many problems with the AI roll out I am fundamentally excited for tools which can accelerate our engineering development. We will build things much faster in 4 years than today. One year of progress will in some instances take one week.

I am particularly interested in how this might begin to accelerate change in heavy industry. With hope it will help us build fusion power reactors and high speed electric trains.

I hope we find the courage to support every person who for one reason or another does not ride this wave. We will have so much more to share, or to hoard.

Re: Can AI design circuit boards yet?

#128

Post by Zambyte »

mpodeley wrote: post #85
kennyadam wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any resources anyone could share that explain how LLMs can do things like design functioning circuits from next token prediction? I am totally baffled by how the models can complete so many varied and complex tasks without an actual understanding of what they're doing. I saw a post about models posting on forums, chatting together about how to complete tasks. Behaviour that seems totally, well, human. Yet,…

“Next-token prediction” describes the output format, not the computation required to choose each token. During training, models develop internal representations of concepts, constraints, possible futures, and algorithms. The PCB agent also writes circuit code, runs simulations, reads failures, and revises the design. It isn’t one-shot autocomplete. Astra and Fable are already hard to square with “mere autocomplete.”…

How can you define "general" and "intelligence" in a way that has existed for years now?

Re: Can AI design circuit boards yet?

#129

Post by a2ff6eeb0 »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #127
a2ff6eeb0 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically, in a few years, humans say what spectrum a device may operate in, AI figures out how to make it, and humans check that AI didn't fuck up? Given, say, 4 more years (ie, same as time from initial ChatGPT to today), what level of spec do you think humans will be giving?

Yes I think generative board design will become better packaged, trained, and validated, and that it will be common place for electrical engineers to rely more on these tools. Major vendors like Altium will add tools like this and their use will become commonplace in industry. For hobbyists, you will be able to specify a board design in natural language and have it completed with unprecedented ease. I’m excited to he…

Yeah. I'm expecting that we fully automate cognition in the medium to long run. I think it's inevitable.

With the advances in math, I'm also hoping we can automate fundamental physics. Just ask for the physics needed for better fusion, no need for human toil.

If we play this right, the AI can fully take care of all our needs, and reaping the rewards of what it does when we stop being able to keep up with the rate of automated discoveries.

Hopefully it's able to dumb down enough knowledge to keep entertained people who decide to learn after learning stops being a requirement for human advancement.

Re: Can AI design circuit boards yet?

#130

Post by sethaurus »

abletonlive wrote: post #81
kennyadam wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any resources anyone could share that explain how LLMs can do things like design functioning circuits from next token prediction? I am totally baffled by how the models can complete so many varied and complex tasks without an actual understanding of what they're doing. I saw a post about models posting on forums, chatting together about how to complete tasks. Behaviour that seems totally, well, human. Yet,…

You fell for the stochastic parrot meme and next token over simplification. That's the explanation.

That's just derision, not an explanation. And it's a bad way to treat someone humbly trying to learn.
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