That is EXACTLY what I would call it. I don't understand why not.
“Next-token predictor” is the wrong mental model for LLMs
201–210 of 330 posts
Re: “Next-token predictor” is the wrong mental model for LLMs
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
All modern LLMs that actually get used go through post-training. The finished product is something which has been through post training. So they are not next token prediction machines.
> The finished product is something which has been through post training. again, the finished product wasn't what was discussed by GP, and you didn't clarify that you were switching to discussing RL (which is still probabilistic btw)
You aren't in this field. You are clearly wrong and just can't handle it.
Re: “Next-token predictor” is the wrong mental model for LLMs
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
Post train a model, you'll be able to determine it is not.
The blog post itself says one thing, but then demonstrates the exact thing they’re arguing against. If you can’t grasp that logic gap then there’s no point discussing further.
1. At inference time, LLMs emit one token at a time given the prior tokens. This looks like prediction and I concede that.
2. During pre-training, LLMs predict the next token and compare to the actual next token in the training data. This is the classic setting for ML predictions. And I think its meaningful, the model really is predicting what the ground truth next token will be in the data.
3. During post-training, in the case of RLVR, there is no ground truth next token. In pretraining, the question is "what token actually came next?". In RLVR, the question is "what sequence of actions gets a high reward?"
And the whole point is that thinking about the RLVR is important. A mental model that stops at 1 or 2 is incomplete and doesn't capture what drives LLM tokens.
Re: “Next-token predictor” is the wrong mental model for LLMs
#204https://www.oranlooney.com/post/rose-petals/#language-models
It’s popular to dismiss LLMs as “just next token predictors.” This is technically true, but also kind of misses the point. Markov chains, RNNs, and transformers are all language models that can be described as “next token predictors,” but they don’t all work equally well. A better question to ask is: “What is this model’s inductive bias?”
A Markov chain (an -gram model) assumes the next word depends on the previous words, and that each possible combination of words has a completely independent parameter. (Andrey Markov proposed using this language model over a century ago, making it the granddaddy of modern LLMs.) So, for a vocabulary of size , there are parameters to learn. For even a smallish like 5, that already explodes the hypothesis space beyond what can be learned from even a huge text corpus like the entire internet. And, simultaneously, having a context window of only the previous 5 words is grossly inadequate for modeling real-world language. Like our FCNN above, this model suffers from having an inductive bias which is too weak.
RNNs tried to fix this problem by compressing the entire history into a single fixed-size state vector, updated one token at a time. But that compression is itself a brutal assumption: everything worth remembering about the past must survive being squeezed through a tiny bottleneck at every step. In practice, RNN models quickly lose the plot after a handful of sentences. Locally, the text they generate looks grammatically correct and meaningful, but zoom out a little and they’re basically nonsense generators. Like our naïve linear model, this model suffers from having an inductive bias which is too strong.
Transformers manage to hit a sweet spot: by keeping the recent history around as a working memory, and attending to different parts of it at different times, the transformer’s bias matches real structure in language: the referent of a pronoun, the subject of a verb, the parenthesis waiting to be closed. Not only that, but the particular structure of the transformer, basically a weighted sum of semantic vectors from the context window, has empirically been shown to somehow be a “good enough” match for the structure of real-world language found in the wild.
Transformers aren’t “smarter” than other possible language models, they just happen to land in that Goldilocks zone where their inductive bias is just right.
Re: “Next-token predictor” is the wrong mental model for LLMs
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The finished product is something which has been through post training. again, the finished product wasn't what was discussed by GP, and you didn't clarify that you were switching to discussing RL (which is still probabilistic btw)
Yes, it was. Nobody says a system or product works a certain way and means the system while it's half built. "Bridges drop cars in the water!". Right. You aren't in this field. You are clearly wrong and just can't handle it.
To understand how an engine works, it's important to understand what a piston does as part of the engine.
Re: “Next-token predictor” is the wrong mental model for LLMs
#206To be honest, I believe I get the point the article is trying to make, and to an extent I agree, but I also think the point is not really made very well. The core of the argument as I understood it is that LLMs aren't just using existing data is training but also new ones. That's fine and good, and you can't simply assume an LLM is simply mashing together all it's data to give you an average of all that got fed into…
> It's just not predicting based on it's training data, but predicting based on RLVR & more, trying to get to the optimal solution ( as much as the solutions CAN be optimal) It is predicting based on a model. In many cases we can download the model off hugging face. The model is conditioned by all sorts of things. Training data, post-training, coincidence, prompt inputs, runtime data available from whatever means. >…
I don't really disagree that human cognition is essentially a predictive task though, as I understand it, predictive coding and related theories based on the Bayesian brain hypothesis are fairly popular these days (though maybe not clearly dominant over alterative models? IDK I'm not a neuroscientist). I imagine most people would draft a few tokens before refining them like MTP or diffusion though, if we do decide to use LMs as an analogy to human cognition.
Re: “Next-token predictor” is the wrong mental model for LLMs
#207To be honest, I believe I get the point the article is trying to make, and to an extent I agree, but I also think the point is not really made very well. The core of the argument as I understood it is that LLMs aren't just using existing data is training but also new ones. That's fine and good, and you can't simply assume an LLM is simply mashing together all it's data to give you an average of all that got fed into…
> It's just not predicting based on it's training data, but predicting based on RLVR & more, trying to get to the optimal solution ( as much as the solutions CAN be optimal) It is predicting based on a model. In many cases we can download the model off hugging face. The model is conditioned by all sorts of things. Training data, post-training, coincidence, prompt inputs, runtime data available from whatever means. >…
Re: “Next-token predictor” is the wrong mental model for LLMs
#208To be honest, I believe I get the point the article is trying to make, and to an extent I agree, but I also think the point is not really made very well. The core of the argument as I understood it is that LLMs aren't just using existing data is training but also new ones. That's fine and good, and you can't simply assume an LLM is simply mashing together all it's data to give you an average of all that got fed into…
I think the point is more that in RL there's no ground truth to predict. So when training a model with RL the idea of "predicting" doesn't fit anymore. I'll make some edits I see that I wasn't very clear.
Re: “Next-token predictor” is the wrong mental model for LLMs
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "it's not just a next-token predictor because a bunch of the training isn't about predicting the next token." clever procedures on top of the base transformer architecture. i used simplified words/phrases to summarise the same thing you two were saying (the intent being: here's a version that may be digestible when discussing with others). apparently that means i'm wrong though, no idea why because it seems you've…
They aren't predicting the next token. It's quite literally not a prediction.
Re: “Next-token predictor” is the wrong mental model for LLMs
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
The distinction is that it's not 'predicting the next token'. Instead it's _determining_ the next token based on a prediction of its reward signal.
> _determining_ the next token based on a prediction Also known as predicting.
If I steer a car to avoid a predicted collision with a wall, this is not me 'predicting' the car. I am steering the car based on a prediction.