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How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

arstechnica.com

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Re: How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

#161

Post by teekert »

Valodim wrote: post #10

Not an expert, but I recently heard that apparently not everything is perfect in fairphone land: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-stand...

The GOS people really spend a lot of time of energy showing the worst sides of FairPhone to the world. I think it is because the conscientious technology user is really interested in the combination of ethically sourced, repairable hardware and a security and privacy (from big tech) focussed OS. Tbh I also like that sliders to switch to a simple mode. A well, we can’t have it all. I do prefer de-googled + freedom to do what I want over security (to a degree). So… I’m on the fence. As many vocal people are. A second hand pixel 10 is also a “green” choice.

I do have the feeling that many non-nerds can express the difference between all mentioned attributes, many just like FairPhone as an ethical phone. It’s not that simple, I agree.

Re: How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

#162

Post by subscribed »

moffkalast wrote: post #73
subscribed wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are devices meeting these basic standards right now, and the entire family of them, no less. GOS are vocal about safety and security of all the devices, not just seriously insecure Fairphones, and this article is about something different altogether, that's misinformation they've been hit with several times. Fair criticism is fair, but yours is fabrications.

[flagged]

At the moment there is no other hardware manufacturer making similarly secure android phones.

*NONE*

There is no android hardware coming close. If there is, please name it. As far as I know it's only some unspecified, upcoming Motorola flagships.

If you call the unwilling, pragmatic choice an "intense hypocrisy", it's pretty clear to me you're simply driven by emotions and tribalism, that the facts don't matter.

Are you saying that using Google hardware equals using stock Google os?

You must be a little more.... Coherent with your metaphors :)

Re: How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

#163

Post by palata »

ValdikSS wrote: post #33
Valodim wrote: post #10

Not an expert, but I recently heard that apparently not everything is perfect in fairphone land: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-stand...

GrapheneOS is like a veteran and war zone expert: for them, not only the external environment is considered extremely hostile that you should leave your house only wearing an armor and with bodyguards, but also the internal environment is hostile: your bodyguards could be bribed and work against you, that's why you need to somehow be protected against that as well. Just as physical security, digital security most of…

On the other hand, my experience with /e/OS on a Fairphone was that it was 4 years behind in updates as compared to Stock Android on that Fairphone.

I don't think that expecting security updates it being an extremist, or is it?

Re: How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

#164

Post by dzikimarian »

fsflover wrote: post #153
gib444 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s a get-out clause in the law As all too common GDPR: "legimate interest" EU261: "exceptional circumstances", no deadlines for paying compensation etc yes yes, "no law is perfect" etc..nobody could foresee anything...downvote away

> GDPR: "legimate interest" It doesn't allow spying though. It allows, e.g., to save your session if you intentionally logged in.

That's different setting.

Typical "legitimate interest" section is about sharing data with 40 "trusted partners".

Re: How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

#165

Post by izacus »

dzikimarian wrote: post #164
fsflover wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GDPR: "legimate interest" It doesn't allow spying though. It allows, e.g., to save your session if you intentionally logged in.

That's different setting. Typical "legitimate interest" section is about sharing data with 40 "trusted partners".

That's just plainly false.

Re: How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

#166

Post by palata »

teekert wrote: post #161
Valodim wrote: post #10

Not an expert, but I recently heard that apparently not everything is perfect in fairphone land: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-stand...

The GOS people really spend a lot of time of energy showing the worst sides of FairPhone to the world. I think it is because the conscientious technology user is really interested in the combination of ethically sourced, repairable hardware and a security and privacy (from big tech) focussed OS. Tbh I also like that sliders to switch to a simple mode. A well, we can’t have it all. I do prefer de-googled + freedom to…

So I have been on /e/OS on a Fairphone 3+ for 4.5 years. I was really into /e/OS when I got my Fairphone. When it stopped being usable (not because the hardware was not working anymore, just that the apps I want on my phone were lagging so much they were unusable), I looked into alternatives, including GrapheneOS.

And at that point I got quite disappointed by /e/OS, because I felt like their marketing had been abusing me for years. For instance, my Fairphone 3+ was 4 years behind the Fairphone Stock Android on some updates. /e/OS just wasn't forwarding them, they seemingly were just not maintaining the FP3. Though I bought it to /e/OS, under the promise that it would be supported!

Then I realised that all this time, not only my bootloader was unlocked (so the Android security model had been broken from the first day I powered the phone), but the system was signed with the Google test keys! When you are encouraged to install apps "from the internet" instead of the Play Store, on a phone that disabled the security model so that you're not protected against malware as on any Stock Android, would you say it's being a security nerd?

The thing that GrapheneOS keeps repeating and I realised is true is that many times, if you run a deGoogled alternative that is not GrapheneOS, you get worse security than if you were running Stock Android. It's not about "getting the best possible security", it's about getting the baseline. The truth with /e/OS (or LineageOS, which is pretty much what /e/OS ships, I believe?) is that it depends a lot on the phone. And with many phones, you get worse than the baseline you would get with Stock Android.

> I do prefer de-googled + freedom to do what I want over security (to a degree).

So I switched to GrapheneOS on a Pixel, and I feel like I get the best of both worlds: I get the privacy benefits of the sandboxed Play Services, and the better security. And it's not a "weird" system at all: I asked my family to use it and they didn't realise it was not a "normal Android". It is very different from running something like a Linux on mobile, which would be very very different.

> many just like FairPhone as an ethical phone

Yes, why not. If I was to get a Fairphone again, though, I would use the Stock Android.

And I wish Fairphone could get to the level where they can be supported by GrapheneOS. But it feels like my next phone will probably be a Motorola with GrapheneOS rather than a Fairphone.

Re: How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

#167

Post by palata »

neobrain wrote: post #37
Grombobulous wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, a lot of the “fairness” of the Fairphone is offered by “just buy a really popular manufacturer.” Everyone and their dog can repair an iPhone because it’s the most popular phone on the planet. Are those repairs accessible to the consumer at home with amateur skills? No, not really. However, newer iPhone models are significantly easier to repair and come along with lower repair costs direct from the manufac…

I'm not big on this general line on argument, but one point in particular: > And of course, fairphone’s hardware and OS are nothing to write home about. For the freedom and security nerds they’re better off with GrapheneOS on Pixel or whatever upcoming Motorola phones will support it. For the "freedom nerds", FP is one of the only (if not the only?) vendor to have official support for microG-based operating systems,…

> For the "freedom nerds", FP is one of the only (if not the only?) vendor to have official support for microG-based operating systems, seamless OTA updates and everything included.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I have never had an Android system that did not have OTA updates. Everything included... I usually like to install the apps I want?

As for microG, I think it's debatable. Is it better to have microG contacting the Google servers or sandboxed Play Services going through a Graphene-powered proxy? And say you have microG going through a Murena proxy (do they do that?), is that significantly better than sandboxed Play Services? At the end of the day, your system is made mostly of code written by Google (AOSP).

> The Murena e/OS offering in particular is simple enough that the non-nerds

Yes, I think it's what makes Murena successful. It's surprisingly simple to install GrapheneOS on a Pixel (you follow a wizard on a Chromium browser and click "next" a bunch of times), but many people are scare just by the idea.

Re: How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

#168

Post by palata »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #93
Grombobulous wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, a lot of the “fairness” of the Fairphone is offered by “just buy a really popular manufacturer.” Everyone and their dog can repair an iPhone because it’s the most popular phone on the planet. Are those repairs accessible to the consumer at home with amateur skills? No, not really. However, newer iPhone models are significantly easier to repair and come along with lower repair costs direct from the manufac…

> For the freedom and security nerds they’re better off with GrapheneOS on Pixel or whatever upcoming Motorola phones will support it. Not quite. The people who care about security first are better off with GOS, yes. However, GOS's threat model very specifically treats the user as a thing to defend against; the freedom-first crowd should avoid them.

> However, GOS's threat model very specifically treats the user as a thing to defend against

Can you elaborate?

GOS mostly honours the Android security model, which many alternatives don't do (many times they don't have a choice because the device doesn't allow them to relock the bootloader, so they just defeat the whole security model from the moment you install).

There is absolutely nothing that can be done on a Stock Android and that I cannot do on GrapheneOS. Or at least I haven't found it.

Re: How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

#169

Post by palata »

luqtas wrote: post #67
Grombobulous wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, a lot of the “fairness” of the Fairphone is offered by “just buy a really popular manufacturer.” Everyone and their dog can repair an iPhone because it’s the most popular phone on the planet. Are those repairs accessible to the consumer at home with amateur skills? No, not really. However, newer iPhone models are significantly easier to repair and come along with lower repair costs direct from the manufac…

isn't the main point of Fairphone to not use conflict minerals? by using FOSS only myself and hating monopolies like Apple etc., i still pretty much convinced that being "green" or "ethical" is more about participating/volunteering/doing-something towards a better world than off-loading your duty to other companies... one could easily make a point that Apple products despite locked down, are still green (Apple has a…

I have been wondering and I first got a Fairphone 3+ because I thought, among others, it was "greener".

Then I realised that:

- Fairphone 3 was already "slow" when it was released in 2019

- Fairphone 3+ was pretty much exactly the same hardware, but I bought it 2.5 years later

- My Fairphone 3+ was annoyingly slow from the moment I bought it (I was using it less than a normal phone because of that, and I just completely gave up on using the camera and asked other people to take photos instead).

- My Fairphone 3+ became painfully after 1.5 - 2 years.

I did not change phone because the hardware was not running anymore. I changed because I just couldn't use the few apps I needed because they were unusable (lagging and crashing). I don't mean games: banking apps, weather forecasts, public transports. Pretty much only Signal/WhatsApp were fine (slow, but fine).

So I painfully kept my Fairphone 3+ for a little more than 4 years.

Then I realised that people who buy an iPhone routinely keep it 6-8 years, without it being painful at all. Is it "greener" if I buy one iPhone/Pixel, or 2 Fairphones? I'm not so sure anymore. What I know is that the iPhone/Pixel are not painful to use.

Re: How Fairphone built the Fairphone Gen 6+

#170

Post by palata »

Foobar8568 wrote: post #62
mhitza wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairphone makes their fair share of blunders. Software updates are a big issue, especially around the times that critical vulnerabilities need to be patched. With the hardware I'm not impressed, and on their own forum I've seen plenty of people reporting issues with overheating on the Gen 6. Hopefully kinks have been ironed out on their 6+. The current CEO also has a persona that would stir up any community (read a f…

I have an FP4, and when it'll die, I will just buy an iphone. Security updates are slow, and after the bullshit of the android upgrade, yeah but no.

> and after the bullshit of the android upgrade

Fair enough, but note that it does not concern GrapheneOS. Hopefully soon available on Motorola phones :-). That would be my next phone (assuming it's not too expensive of course).

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