Everyone against data centers is doing cost-benefit analysis. If the data center folks want to solve this, work on that ratio. And both sides, if you please, since the perceived benefit right now is basically zero.
'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
161–170 of 207 posts
Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
#162Residents of the state should get money for needing to live next to data centers and the use of their land/natural resources/etc, similar to the Alaska Permanent Fund.
They already do, indirectly. The local government gets property taxes from these data centers. But maybe it would be more real for people if you just wrote them a check I guess.
I have no idea where you live, but the exact opposite is true everywhere I've lived in the US south. Big businesses pay next to zero tax while residents and small businesses bear the entire tax burden
Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
The sweetheart deals are usually from the state, sometimes the county. Town budgets tend to be so small that ~$20m/yr will have the council falling over themselves to approve it. The problem, from the cases I have looked at, seems to be that towns want to do dumb shit with this money rather than just cut residents a tax break.
Or the towns are not rich enough to fight in a lawsuit after the town council initially says no, which is how my local datacenter was approved against the will of the people
It's like an inverse representative democracy. A government committed to doing the opposite of the people's desires.
Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why and how would they contaminate the water supply though? Sounds like a municipality problem, a water consumer shouldn't be feeding back into the system, or is it being caused by poorly executed construction practices? Maybe when they first pipe in or something is being left open during construction, this seems like it shouldn't happen if things are being done properly, water supply systems are not a new technology…
In the case of one amazon data center the town already had nitrates in their water due to agricultural runoff, but at levels that weren't a problem. Amazon took in hundreds of millions of gallons of that water for cooling, which evaporated away some of the water, but left the nitrates. Then amazon dumped the concentrated nitrate 'waste water' at such high volumes that it was pushed so deep into ground that it reached…
This doesn't even make any sense. "deeper in the ground" is mostly wishful thinking. Why wouldn't the contamination spread? How can anyone be sure there is even potable water deeper?
Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
#165Really the main issue causing the data center backlash is because they aren't building new 100% green energy production capacity with it. When you drop a data center into an area, energy prices will spike. Additionally, without that green energy capacity they will cause much more air pollution.
That includes nuclear power, correct?
By the time nuclear power were to come online in the US, most of these datacenters would be idled and possibly even demolished.
Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When you drop a data center into an area, energy prices will spike Why is that? Where I live my energy bill is a fixed cost. It's a super expensive fixed cost, since I'm living in Germany, but it is fixed none the less. It increases year by year because all costs only go up, but it remains completely unaffected by unrelated infrastructure being built around where I live. I've been to a data center before due to wor…
Unless the German government is subsidizing or fixing the cost, that is not possible. Infrastructure requires new capacity to be build, which requires capacity payments.
So you can't just build things in Germany. Even if you just want to build a structure on your property. You need to get government approval first. Which can take years.
You won't get approval if whatever you want to build would impact things that way, meaning before you can build or even expand something like a data center you have to make sure the capacity is there or pay yourself to build it or pay to get a direct line from outside the city. Either way, other people won't need to pay more because of it.
Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
They haven’t been. I’m aware of new golf courses being planned in my area and I hear nothing but enthusiasm. Literally no one brings up water consumption as a concern. This whole thing is a sublimation of vaguer anxieties about AI (which are perfectly rational!) into areas where people feel like they can make more concrete objections that are likelier to succeed. The water thing is completely fake, whether people thi…
Not entirely. Lack of regulations mean recycled water facilities can end up being consumption facilities with pollution risk. Also Meta plans to restore as much water as they use by 2030. Which, seems like a while to break even. That's primarily because ai data centers require a lot more cooling water and power than traditional ones. So, you can scream fake news all you want, but it is a concern and it is a good way…
It’s not just whataboutism, it’s pointing out that the people up in arms about data center water usage don’t even know about the long list of things that use way more water than data centers, and when told, they don’t care.
I think it’s pretty reasonable to conclude that their beef is not really with water usage as much as a general hatred of AI, big tech, etc, and water usage is an easy thing to focus on.
Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
The construction itself absolutely alters local watersheds: 1. Replacing forests and fields with concrete buildings prevents rainwater from filtering into the soil, which stops local aquifers from recharging. 2. During storms the rain runs off impervious surfaces and can cause downstream flooding. 3. Heavy land grading washes loose sediment into nearby waterways, destroying aquatic habitats and turning private drinki…
how would this mess with a water supply though, or are we talking the private wells? with a private well though it's something you want to mitigate either way, filters, etc, granted I have only seen the handful of clips where someone is showing dirty water coming out of the tap and I am trying to trace the chain of responsibility for the water supply, thanks for the detailed response btw
My county, for example, only processes surface water. If someone altered our upstream collection or polluted the reservoir, it would be a very big deal.
For private wells: if you're a rural person who previously had perfectly fine water, and now someone comes along to mess with that, even if it "just" requires installing expensive new equipment, you're going to be pissed.
Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
The construction itself absolutely alters local watersheds: 1. Replacing forests and fields with concrete buildings prevents rainwater from filtering into the soil, which stops local aquifers from recharging. 2. During storms the rain runs off impervious surfaces and can cause downstream flooding. 3. Heavy land grading washes loose sediment into nearby waterways, destroying aquatic habitats and turning private drinki…
The first three apply to any construction project with a paved surface and there are ways to mitigate that, you can collect the runoff in a cistern/tank that filters back into the groundwater or collect it in a retention pond which does the same thing. Items 4 and 5 apply to any facility with cooling towers, not limited to but including hospitals, apartment buildings, schools, prisons, cold storage warehouses, combin…
Yes, and...? Data centers are the large projects being built right now. Often in communities with no prior experience with projects of such scale.
I don't doubt that politics plays a role, but we also can't deny that the current moment is a different category.
Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
The construction itself absolutely alters local watersheds: 1. Replacing forests and fields with concrete buildings prevents rainwater from filtering into the soil, which stops local aquifers from recharging. 2. During storms the rain runs off impervious surfaces and can cause downstream flooding. 3. Heavy land grading washes loose sediment into nearby waterways, destroying aquatic habitats and turning private drinki…
All of this applies to all construction of all types. There are already plenty of environmental regulations around buildings and their construction. Maybe these aren't being enforced, maybe the laws need to be stricter. I'm not an expert but it sounds plausible. But if that's the case, we have to fix those problems otherwise you're just playing whack-a-mole with development. When you specifically focus on datacenters…
It seems like many of these town council debates are citizens asking for the laws to be enforced.