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'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

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Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#131

Post by wood_spirit »

bluGill wrote: post #89
wood_spirit wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if invisible they would not be a popular neighbour because they are a very overt reminder to the poor people around them how uneven the wealth and political power distribution is between them and the tech exec owners?

They should be popular - they pay property taxes to the local schools without taking much from the community at all. (note that I'm coming out against the all too common tax breaks that they get to build in your city)

They should be underground (that’s not shockingly expensive at the scale we talk about) and a net green-energy-driven power producer which they give away for free and pay property taxes. The list of things they could do that would be a cheap 1-2% of the total build and running costs to soften it are long.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#132

Post by leonidasrup »

triceratops wrote: post #88
leonidasrup wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How long does a solar farm take? 24–48 months, but for a data center that has to run 24/7 you need to also build a gas power plant. https://www.pvfarm.io/blog/utility-scale-solar-project-devel... https://globalenergymonitor.org/research/betting-big-data-ce...

Or use batteries. Also residential and industrial use will be lower at night. So the existing grid supply may also be enough.

In many places the contraty is true, peak electricity prices are after sunset, during night.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#133

Post by pingou »

ifwinterco wrote: post #77
kerhackernews wrote: post #2

Really the main issue causing the data center backlash is because they aren't building new 100% green energy production capacity with it. When you drop a data center into an area, energy prices will spike. Additionally, without that green energy capacity they will cause much more air pollution.

Also Sam, Dario et al have constantly (like literally, every single week at least) been telling us that AI is going to make all of us unemployable and have to live on welfare. Is it any wonder people hear that and go "hmm, no thanks" when the prospect of a massive whirring data centre next to their house is raised? The SV LLM crowd know a lot about LLM psychology but seemingly very little about human psychology

But the question shouldn't be, do you want datacentres or not? Datacentres are gonna be built in China or elsewhere.

The question should be, do you prefer to have them also built in the US or do you agree to have China (or another country) controlling AI in the future?

If AI is really gonna make everyone unemployable, then it seems to me like you would want them to be built in your country, not in another country, especially not one you disagree with.

Of course they're still the question of where exactly there are built and how to compensate for the nuisances they may bring.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#134

Post by mikestew »

jrflo wrote: post #108
mikestew wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The local government gets property taxes from these data centers. Not if they get a sweetheart tax deal. Why do you think folks are so pissy? It’s like a sports stadium next to your house in that the principals get tax breaks, eminent domain, and other considerations, but it makes noise every day(not just weekends) and you don’t get to go to the game.

I think people are pissy because they're scared of AI and have consumed a lot of misinformation. Most people I know still think that datacenters are going to literally drain the lakes. No one is actually informed on the details, it's all just become a meme at this point. Unless local governments are getting bribed en masse, literally no municipality would want a datacenter if there wasn't a net benefit. I checked in…

I think people are pissy because they're scared of AI and have consumed a lot of misinformation

Just uninformed, are they? To some extent, perhaps they are. OTOH, tech bros aren’t helping any, with Musk’s Memphis DC being the poster child for why you don’t want a DC in your town. They’ll come to your town, make a bunch of noise and pollution, and dare you to enforce the law. “Can’t happen here”? It’s already happened elsewhere.

No one is actually informed on the details, it's all just become a meme at this point.

Perhaps the principals should be more forthcoming about these deals, rather than springing them on the public after the deal is done, then everyone can be well-informed. As it is, such things have been decided in non-public meetings in enough places to cause some skepticism.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#135

Post by semiquaver »

daveguy wrote: post #116
gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would expect that a golf course construction is relatively rare event That's just status quo bias, given that they're an ongoing source of water consumption. "oh it doesn't matter that [thing] is guzzling water, because it's already there!".

Exactly right. It's a lot easier to prevent an asshat venture than it is to dismantle it. Now that the public is aware, I wouldn't be surprised if new golf courses start getting the same treatment.

They haven’t been. I’m aware of new golf courses being planned in my area and I hear nothing but enthusiasm. Literally no one brings up water consumption as a concern.

This whole thing is a sublimation of vaguer anxieties about AI (which are perfectly rational!) into areas where people feel like they can make more concrete objections that are likelier to succeed. The water thing is completely fake, whether people think so or not.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#136

Post by no-name-here »

leonidasrup wrote: post #75
mschuster91 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power takes 10-20 years to build from scratch.

Median build time for 1 GW nuclear power plant in Japan was 1721 days (4.7 years), first concrete to grid connection. https://x.com/GrantChalmers/status/1422472474487263233

1. The 2 reactors under construction [1 > CONSTRUCTION] are expected to take 20 years and >20 years respectively [2][3].

2. Nuclear Safety Commission Chairman Haruki Madarame told a parliamentary inquiry that "Japan's atomic safety rules are inferior to global standards and left the country unprepared for the Fukushima nuclear disaster". There were flaws in, and lax enforcement of, the safety rules governing Japanese nuclear power companies. [4 (Bloomberg: "Nuclear Safety Chief Says Lax Rules Led to Fukushima Crisis")]

3. Additionally, your source is from more than 5 years ago; in those additional >5 years, neither of the 2 under-construction Japan plants (started in 2006 and 2010) have finished, and 1 is not expected until 2030 (I couldn't find an expected date for the other).

4. The phase you mentioned is a relatively small amount (~1/3) of a nuclear reactor's total startup timeline. [6]

5. Japan was the fastest country from your 2021 source (before taking into account that current JP builds are taking 20+ years).

6. The last Japan reactor to go online was in the 2000s [1 > OPERATION].

[1] https://cnpp.iaea.org/public/countries/JP/profile/preview

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cma_Nuclear_Power_Plant

[3] https://pris-stats.iaea.org/reactor/862

[4] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-02-16/nuclear-s...

[5] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Typical-timeline-of-a-nu...

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#137

Post by no-name-here »

blooalien wrote: post #65
lisp2240 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse some data centers have been caught running on diesel generators even in places where that is illegal. People are sick of tech companies bribing their way out of any accountability.

> Even worse some data centers have been caught running on diesel generators even in places where that is illegal. Yeah, Elon's a big fan of this tactic.

Source for the above claim, although it was actually methane gas turbines: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/15/elon-musk...

> A US regulator ruled on Thursday that Elon Musk’s artificial intelligence company had acted illegally by using dozens of methane gas turbines to power huge datacenters in Tennessee.

> xAI has been fighting for a year and a half over truck-sized gas turbines the company had parked near its Colossus 1 and 2 facilities, arguing to local authorities that the electricity-generating turbines were exempt from requirements for air quality permits.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#138

Post by no-name-here »

nxm wrote: post #7
kerhackernews wrote: post #2

Really the main issue causing the data center backlash is because they aren't building new 100% green energy production capacity with it. When you drop a data center into an area, energy prices will spike. Additionally, without that green energy capacity they will cause much more air pollution.

That includes nuclear power, correct?

I'm fine with any power source, but all sources should include all lifetime externality costs (including for fossil/nuclear/renewable):

* Externality costs for items like pollution

* Any required insurance cost during their lifetime (not subsidized)

* An up-front bond or similar to cover final decommissioning and any required long-term storage costs (again, for fossil/renewable/nuclear)

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#139

Post by Taikonerd »

kerhackernews wrote: post #2

Really the main issue causing the data center backlash is because they aren't building new 100% green energy production capacity with it. When you drop a data center into an area, energy prices will spike. Additionally, without that green energy capacity they will cause much more air pollution.

> Really the main issue [is] ... energy production

I know that's what the rhetoric focuses on, but is it the real issue? The people I know personally who are against "data centers" are really just against AI, period. "It takes jobs from artists, it's going to take my job, it's going to enrich a handful of oligarchs," etc.

I suspect that even if some magical breakthrough meant that AI usage could grow and grow without building a single new data center, these guys would still oppose AI.

And understandably so! "I'm worried that AI will take my job" is a reasonable worry, for many jobs! But I feel like "data centers" is, for many people, a pretext.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#140

Post by daveguy »

semiquaver wrote: post #135
daveguy wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly right. It's a lot easier to prevent an asshat venture than it is to dismantle it. Now that the public is aware, I wouldn't be surprised if new golf courses start getting the same treatment.

They haven’t been. I’m aware of new golf courses being planned in my area and I hear nothing but enthusiasm. Literally no one brings up water consumption as a concern. This whole thing is a sublimation of vaguer anxieties about AI (which are perfectly rational!) into areas where people feel like they can make more concrete objections that are likelier to succeed. The water thing is completely fake, whether people thi…

Not entirely. Lack of regulations mean recycled water facilities can end up being consumption facilities with pollution risk. Also Meta plans to restore as much water as they use by 2030. Which, seems like a while to break even. That's primarily because ai data centers require a lot more cooling water and power than traditional ones. So, you can scream fake news all you want, but it is a concern and it is a good way to oppose ai in general. And power consumption, noise pollution, and pollution are also serious issues. "Whatabout this worse thing" is a pretty terrible argument. You can whatabout anything, but it doesn't make that thing any less bad. aka two wrongs don't make a right.
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