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'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

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Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#101

Post by citrin_ru »

semiquaver wrote: post #78
MatekCopatek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are you getting at? Datacenters do use potable water from municipal sources for evaporative cooling. Are you claiming that's not true? Here's a recent source: https://pacinst.org/publication/how-much-water-do-data-cente...

golf courses use much more. But you don’t see massive resistance against new golf courses being planned. Farms use an order of magnitude more than either. You don’t see any demands whatsoever on agriculture to reduce water usage.

I would expect that a golf course construction is relatively rare event. And there is definitely no explosion of new golf courses. Total DC power consumption growth is practically exponential for the last 5 years.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#102

Post by doublepg23 »

simondotau wrote: post #83
hightrix wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concerns about noise pollution and increased electricity costs are just morons? What about concerns about air pollution from unregulated diesel generators? Or using large amounts of water in drought prone areas?

I wouldn’t be so coarse, but mostly yes. Data centres are hardly new, and the subset of legitimate criticisms problems are hardly unique.

> Data centres are hardly new

A commenter below quotes a 73% annual growth rate vs. 23% over the prior decade.

You don't think that'd have an effect on people's perception?

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#103

Post by altcognito »

kerhackernews wrote: post #2

Really the main issue causing the data center backlash is because they aren't building new 100% green energy production capacity with it. When you drop a data center into an area, energy prices will spike. Additionally, without that green energy capacity they will cause much more air pollution.

Companies are content to charge more in the short term to pay for the upgrades on the backs of the current subscribers as opposed to just charging the people for whom the extra load is desired.

Then these big buyers go ahead and pay 50% of what everyone else is paying.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#104

Post by vegetablepotpie »

lordgilman wrote: post #21
kerhackernews wrote: post #2

Really the main issue causing the data center backlash is because they aren't building new 100% green energy production capacity with it. When you drop a data center into an area, energy prices will spike. Additionally, without that green energy capacity they will cause much more air pollution.

I suspect the authors of this paper would like to hear out your evidence for increasing energy prices https://arxiv.org/abs/2606.19777 In the United States at least there's been plenty of polling on why people oppose data centers. Consistently, it's water usage and water contamination fears, which is exactly what you see most often in social media and discussed online. I think a lot of high-minded rationalizations ar…

There is a methodical issue with that study that the authors acknowledge.

> How can higher demand lead to lower prices? … a bump in demand can allow for higher utilization of the existing generation … Provided the bump does not violate capacity constraints

I.e. data centers reduce electricity prices, as long as you don’t build new generation to support them. Whereas data centers, nationally are projected to increase energy use between 325 to 580 TWh annually by 2028 [1]. There is no way you are going to meet that without building new generation assets to meet that demand.

[1] https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-releases-new-report-eval...

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#105

Post by daveguy »

adventured wrote: post #90
ifwinterco wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Sam, Dario et al have constantly (like literally, every single week at least) been telling us that AI is going to make all of us unemployable and have to live on welfare. Is it any wonder people hear that and go "hmm, no thanks" when the prospect of a massive whirring data centre next to their house is raised? The SV LLM crowd know a lot about LLM psychology but seemingly very little about human psychology

They've fired up the same irrational hordes that brought us flat earthing, anti-vax, and 5G Covid. It's just another parade of extreme ignorance. And yes, the SF crowd is comically oblivious to what they're dealing with, ivory tower style. They're detached from the great unwashed masses. It's not that they don't know anything about human psychology. They don't care about those people or their concerns, historically.…

Opposition to AI data centers is completely rational, which is why both liberal and conservative folks are against it. These data centers are being forced on communities with soon-to-be-former leaders agreeing to nondisclosure agreements. They raise electricity prices. They are being slapped together with poor water recycling, and noisy diesel generators that pollute. The data centers for AI use a lot more resources than traditional ones. And the tech oligarchs think they can ram rush these things through, but they can't. People are sick of the lack of transparency. They're doing it all wrong to save a buck and a minute.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#106

Post by masfuerte »

adventured wrote: post #90
ifwinterco wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Sam, Dario et al have constantly (like literally, every single week at least) been telling us that AI is going to make all of us unemployable and have to live on welfare. Is it any wonder people hear that and go "hmm, no thanks" when the prospect of a massive whirring data centre next to their house is raised? The SV LLM crowd know a lot about LLM psychology but seemingly very little about human psychology

They've fired up the same irrational hordes that brought us flat earthing, anti-vax, and 5G Covid. It's just another parade of extreme ignorance. And yes, the SF crowd is comically oblivious to what they're dealing with, ivory tower style. They're detached from the great unwashed masses. It's not that they don't know anything about human psychology. They don't care about those people or their concerns, historically.…

Ignorant? Do enlightened people want to live next door to noisy data centres?

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#107

Post by simondotau »

hightrix wrote: post #86
simondotau wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t be so coarse, but mostly yes. Data centres are hardly new, and the subset of legitimate criticisms problems are hardly unique.

Care to expand?

Others already have elsewhere in this discussion.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#108

Post by jrflo »

mikestew wrote: post #20
jrflo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already do, indirectly. The local government gets property taxes from these data centers. But maybe it would be more real for people if you just wrote them a check I guess.

The local government gets property taxes from these data centers. Not if they get a sweetheart tax deal. Why do you think folks are so pissy? It’s like a sports stadium next to your house in that the principals get tax breaks, eminent domain, and other considerations, but it makes noise every day(not just weekends) and you don’t get to go to the game.

I think people are pissy because they're scared of AI and have consumed a lot of misinformation. Most people I know still think that datacenters are going to literally drain the lakes. No one is actually informed on the details, it's all just become a meme at this point.

Unless local governments are getting bribed en masse, literally no municipality would want a datacenter if there wasn't a net benefit. I checked in my area and the datacenters are receiving tax breaks, but they also have to pay into the local school districts and fund the energy infrastructure buildout. Just because tax breaks are part of the deal doesn't mean there isn't a net benefit for the community.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#109

Post by slowmovintarget »

BigTTYGothGF wrote: post #82
slowmovintarget wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So not the massive Chinese bot farm (200K +) launching anti-datacenter propaganda campaigns? It's just the green energy concern? ("Spiking local prices" was one of the propaganda talking points.) These new AI data centers are now built with their own power generation capacity. They're too electricity hungry to be supplied by the local grid, requiring megawatts to gigawatts of generation. If they're grid-connected at…

Ah, the good old "outside agitators" canard. > These new AI data centers are now built with their own power generation capacity And now you've got all the noise and pollution from that to deal with.

Some of the data centers build out solar, most are natural gas turbines.

The outside agitators are in the news. The U.S. just happens to be a little more vulnerable to "straight to the people" propaganda campaigns.

Re: 'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres

#110

Post by simondotau »

doublepg23 wrote: post #102
simondotau wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t be so coarse, but mostly yes. Data centres are hardly new, and the subset of legitimate criticisms problems are hardly unique.

> Data centres are hardly new A commenter below quotes a 73% annual growth rate vs. 23% over the prior decade. You don't think that'd have an effect on people's perception?

Perception, absolutely yes.
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