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FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

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Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#291

Post by k33n »

otterley wrote: post #272
k33n wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and that other guy made good points from a constitutional law standpoint, don’t misunderstand my disagreement for dismissal of any kind. A legal term of art is often a bit different than the basic word itself. From a legal term of art perspective, I’m essentially referencing “absolute sovereignty”, which would more closely mirror the actual dictionary definition of sovereignty, as a basic, contextless word.

It seems disingenuous, or at least antisocial, to insist that you are correct about a broad and unqualified statement you made while also declaring that you meant something narrower all along.

It's completely genuine, and it's obvious that I was referring to the basic meaning of the word the entire time to even a casual observer. Ascribing malice seems a bit irrational to me.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#292

Post by thephyber »

what wrote: post #277
thephyber wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm sure every person in Mississippi has the same super expedient interaction as a HNer when they have to visit to get their ID documents. I bet you even live next door to the DMV so your travel time was negligible. The point of the government doing it is that it has to be able to service those people who live maximally far from a DMV (say 60 minutes each way by car), who can't drive there, who have to weigh los…

The idea that people are unable to get IDs is an absolute myth. You need it to for basically everything a normal adult does.

You are just repeating the same meme that every Republican says.

There is a huge difference between a guaranteed Constitutional right that this country fought a Civil War for... and a privilege such as getting on a plane or driving a car.

Assume that I know everything you know about this topic and still arrived at a different conclusion.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#293

Post by sam_lowry_ »

Teknomadix wrote: post #264
seniorThrowaway wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it would likely be built into the ID, like a PIV/CAC card. I thought about this same thing many years ago, the state DMV's could be in a PKI web of trust with a federal signer/issuer/cross-signer above them. Proving your identity online would mean inserting your ID into your computer so it could be crypto-graphically validated. Yes there are genuine privacy and other concerns, but we'll probably end up there anyway a…

This is essentially how my Estonian ID card works. The ID card is inserted into a USB smartcard reader and grants access to identity verification an thus access to services.

Why on Earth does everyone speaks about Estonian ID cards? Same ID-1 sized eID cards are now issued in many EU countries.

Estonia wasn't even the first, Belgium was.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#294

Post by cromka »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #293
Teknomadix wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially how my Estonian ID card works. The ID card is inserted into a USB smartcard reader and grants access to identity verification an thus access to services.

Why on Earth does everyone speaks about Estonian ID cards? Same ID-1 sized eID cards are now issued in many EU countries. Estonia wasn't even the first, Belgium was.

They do because Estonia made the best use of them for their eGov, including for election voting.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#295

Post by sam_lowry_ »

MilaM wrote: post #159
ericmay wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which “normal, modern countries” have done variations of this?

Most European countries offer some kind of government issued digital ID to their citizens, although adoption varies by country. I know two implementations first-hand and use them regularly. They work really well to prove your identity over the Internet. You can use it to open a bank account or use government services. The next step will be EU-DI, an app based wallet with many more features and hopefully better intero…

The next step is giving up Digital Sovereignty to American companies via EU-DI ;-)

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#296

Post by toast0 »

robhlt wrote: post #197
jeffbee wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States doesn't have a central registry of citizens. New births are supposed to be recorded by local officials, in about 3000 different jurisdictions, and they're only recorded locally. Many of those local jurisdictions are operated poorly, and in some cases they have refused to issue certificates of birth based on race, or other personal grudges held by officials. So we simply aren't in the position to iss…

The social security administration does have a central database of essentially everyone born in the US after 1986, when a law was passed that required you to provide the SSN of anyone you claimed as a dependent on your taxes. As a result essentially every child born in the US is issued an SSN along with their birth certificate.

Enumeration at birth was piloted in three states starting in 1987, made available to all states in 1989, and more or less in use everywhere by 1997 ... Needing an SSN for taxes is the motivation (or vice versa) but implentation of the tax change happened before implementation of enumeration.

Also, it should be noted, parents can opt out of enumeration at birth. The child certainly doesn't have input into that decision.

Medical professionals are generally legally obligated to report births, but not all births happen with medical supervision.

I was in college around 2000. Some of my fellow students had no way to obtain an official birth certificate as the county records had been lost in a flood or a fire or something.

Older generations also have the legacy of Jim Crow. Birth registration rates in 1940 in some states was close to 80%. [1].

If you're born today and don't have a birth certificate, it's a giant PITA and your parents will likely end up getting your birth retroactively documented. Maybe when they want to claim you for taxes; maybe to enroll you in school.

If you were born in 1940 and didn't have one, you probably just made do... When 24% of the children in Arkansas didn't get a birth certificate, everybody is going to be fine with you not having one.

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1527492/?page=3 (paper from 1943)

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#297

Post by toast0 »

gnuplustoejam wrote: post #227
jeffbee wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is laying in a ditch bleeding to death. There are loads of people alive today who personally suffered from Jim Crow. These practices continued right through 1968, and were revived in Texas between 2013 and 2016.

This exaggeration is why we can't have universal digital ID or resilient voter fraud protections — which is what the original question was by the way. Do you also believe voter fraud is unheard of and never happens?

> Do you also believe voter fraud is unheard of and never happens?

I believe it's more rare than citizens without documentation of birth.

If you want to tie a 'universal' ID to a birth document when birth documentation is not universal, you need to lead with a proposal for how to actually make it universally accessible, including to those without documentation of birth.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#298

Post by toast0 »

gnuplustoejam wrote: post #228
jeffbee wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are about 600,000 American citizens alive today who lack traceable documentation of their birth due to Jim Crow policies.

We have plenty of naturalized immigrants with no traceable documentation of their birth because they grew up in the middle of nowhere. Somehow this wasn't a problem for them, while whites-only water fountains still live rent-free in your mind. Following your logic, no problem is solvable until you have eliminated all potential issues and outliers. No startups would ever get off the ground with that attitude.

> We have plenty of naturalized immigrants with no traceable documentation of their birth because they grew up in the middle of nowhere.

Sure, because the documentation required used to be less.

When I was first getting my driver's license, you could establish your identity by having a birth certificate or some sort of vouching process. These days, you need a birth certificate.

It would be hard to immigrate today without a birth certificate, in part because it would be hard to get a passport without it, and it's hard to enter the country without a passport. Countries where record keeping was historically poor tend to have more accessible ways to obtain a passport without a birth certificate... A passport is sufficient proof of birth in an immigration file, and a certificate of naturalization is sufficient proof of citizenship, so a birth certificate isn't explicitly necessary.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#299

Post by scrollaway »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #293
Teknomadix wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially how my Estonian ID card works. The ID card is inserted into a USB smartcard reader and grants access to identity verification an thus access to services.

Why on Earth does everyone speaks about Estonian ID cards? Same ID-1 sized eID cards are now issued in many EU countries. Estonia wasn't even the first, Belgium was.

Given that gp says “my” Estonian card, you can assume it’s because they have one and don’t have one of your country of choice.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#300

Post by fc417fc802 »

Teknomadix wrote: post #264
seniorThrowaway wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it would likely be built into the ID, like a PIV/CAC card. I thought about this same thing many years ago, the state DMV's could be in a PKI web of trust with a federal signer/issuer/cross-signer above them. Proving your identity online would mean inserting your ID into your computer so it could be crypto-graphically validated. Yes there are genuine privacy and other concerns, but we'll probably end up there anyway a…

This is essentially how my Estonian ID card works. The ID card is inserted into a USB smartcard reader and grants access to identity verification an thus access to services.

It's also how the entire US DoD does things so it's not as though the US doesn't have in-house expertise.
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