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Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap

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Re: Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap

#81

Post by sermah »

teleforce wrote: post #66
zelphirkalt wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this comment before looking at the article and thought that the grandmaster beat the AI even giving the AI 2 stones. Too bad. But this way around is of course more realistic. And of course you would need to take into consideration the scale of go ratings and chess ratings when making that comparison. With top chess ratings being around 2800, being 1000 less than the top go ratings, one would have to apply a fa…

>Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap English is not my first language but for clarity perhaps the title should be: Go grandmaster Shin with a two-stone handicap defeats AI KataGo

No. It’s not my first language too, but your version sounds odd. Usually you put an action first and only then the details

Re: Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap

#83

Post by shwaj »

somenameforme wrote: post #74
hyperpape wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you scaled Shin Jinseo to 2800, you would have players with extremely negative ratings. This page shows ratings of European players on a roughly aligned scale: https://europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/createalleuro3.php?country... . It still has negative numbers on it, and this only contains players who have attended a tournament (though it's more common for beginners to play tournaments in the west, since it's hard to f…

I'm unfamiliar with Go ratings, but chess ratings are based on the Elo system which is a simple mathematical prediction system. Borrowing some figures from Wiki [1] we get: 1.00 +800 0.99 +677 0.9 +366 0.8 +240 0.7 +149 0.6 +72 0.5 0 0.4 −72 0.3 −149 0.2 −240 0.1 −366 0.01 −677 0.00 −800 The second column is your rating minus your opponent's, and the left is your predicted result. So if you are rating 1849 and your o…

I was under the impression that Go also uses Elo, then I did a bit of cursory research and discovers that it varies.

Two major federations are American Go Association (AGA) and European Go Federation (EGF). EGF uses an Elo-inspired update rule since 2021. AGA uses a quite-different Bayesian system without pairwise update; they provide a paper and a C++ reference impl.

Asian countries don't bother with such numeric ratings. Instead, rankings are titles which are won through tournament promotion structures (sounds similar to Sumo to me).

Interesting, because I always thought that it was more "apples to apples", and that the higher upper limits of Go rankings was somehow indicative of the higher "dynamic range" of the game compared to chess. For example, if Elo were applied to basketball, what would the Elo of Lebron James be compared to a playground hooper (leaving aside that 1-on-1 isn't the best part of Lebron's game)... would it be higher or lower than Magnus Carlsen in chess? I don't have an intuition.

Re: Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap

#84

Post by hakuseki »

jasonfarnon wrote: post #47
PenanceAU wrote: post #35

The headline is a bit misleading, though perhaps not intentionally. Shin took a 2-stone handicap from KataGo which means that Shin is the weaker of the two. But to give that more context, Shin is also the strongest human player to have ever lived in raw strength terms by a good margin, and is known as replicating AI move-for-move more closely than anyone else. If they were to play even then there’s no chance any huma…

naive question--does " He did this at the key opening and middle-game sections and never burnt through the full buffer of handicap points in the last two games. " imply in retrospect he could have won with a smaller handicap? or was having the rest of that buffer in reserve guiding strategy?

Traditionally, handicaps are usually given in the form of extra stones played on the board. This is a coarser resolution than points, with one extra stone in the opening having a strategic value of about 13 points. So he probably couldn't have won if his handicap were a full stone smaller, but he may have won if it were a few points smaller.

Re: Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap

#85

Post by tasuki »

somenameforme wrote: post #74
hyperpape wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you scaled Shin Jinseo to 2800, you would have players with extremely negative ratings. This page shows ratings of European players on a roughly aligned scale: https://europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/createalleuro3.php?country... . It still has negative numbers on it, and this only contains players who have attended a tournament (though it's more common for beginners to play tournaments in the west, since it's hard to f…

I'm unfamiliar with Go ratings, but chess ratings are based on the Elo system which is a simple mathematical prediction system. Borrowing some figures from Wiki [1] we get: 1.00 +800 0.99 +677 0.9 +366 0.8 +240 0.7 +149 0.6 +72 0.5 0 0.4 −72 0.3 −149 0.2 −240 0.1 −366 0.01 −677 0.00 −800 The second column is your rating minus your opponent's, and the left is your predicted result. So if you are rating 1849 and your o…

It works the same in go. Just, as the parent has said, the dynamic range of go is higher.

Re: Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap

#86

Post by spuz »

tasuki wrote: post #82

Great, now next match against blue spot[0], starting even and adjusting the handicap each game. Blue spot is an adversarial ai and it's managed to beat average professionals on five handicaps, which is absolutely insane. [0]: https://codenamebluespot.com/

What does "on five handicaps" mean? The human received a 5-stone handicap?

Re: Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap

#87

Post by hakuseki »

ctchocula wrote: post #68

Given all the interest in sudden interest in go in this thread, anyone have a sure-fire method to improve at go from double-digit kyu to single-digit kyu and amateur dan level?

At double-digit kyu level, you should just play every day until you feel you are stuck.

After you get stuck, you should pick one thing at a time to focus on improving. But the one thing should probably be related to tesuji or life and death.

Re: Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap

#88

Post by nurbl »

somenameforme wrote: post #78
harshreality wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...on a 4x 3090 rig. The game ran 299 moves, giving katago 100 minutes if it exhausted time on each move (which must be the optimal strategy under that time control). Shin used about 205 minutes, over twice as much time and of course had leeway to spend more time on difficult moves. Based on the youtube video, it looks like katago was only using 16 seconds per move, is that right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-86z…

As another question, does it not operate similarly to the top chess engines? The way the neural network systems work is by using the probabilistic matching paired with a Monte Carlo simulation. So you can get to extreme depth very rapidly. Obviously the breadth is going to be limited, but if the neural network side is well tuned (so high probability hits are indeed generally the most challenging moves), then that's n…

I believe the basic idea is similar, but there's an enormous difference in the space of possible moves between chess and Go. Go has a larger board and moves are less restricted. There was a major breakthrough in Go playing programs a decade or two ago when good Monte Carlo methods were developed for it. But still I think the ability to simulate many moves is less powerful in Go.

Re: Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap

#89

Post by FartyMcFarter »

zmgsabst wrote: post #55
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have some questions as a chess player who barely even understands the rules of go. First these josekis sound like what in chess is called a forced tactical sequence. When you say Shin played out a long complex joseki, how does he do that? Does he have to read/calculate it out over the board(50 moves seems crazy to me unless the search tree is highly constrained by geometry/deduction/very few candidate moves, which…

Joseki are akin to book openings in chess, eg, we routinely see players going 20+ moves entirely from AI prep.

The trouble is that in chess, if one player deviates significantly that can often still mean they have a playable (perhaps slightly worse) position which has to either be memorised or understood on the spot, which can be really difficult. The main line is not the only playable line.

Is this also the case for Go's joseki? Or is any deviation easy to punish?

Re: Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap

#90

Post by nottorp »

sermah wrote: post #81
teleforce wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap English is not my first language but for clarity perhaps the title should be: Go grandmaster Shin with a two-stone handicap defeats AI KataGo

No. It’s not my first language too, but your version sounds odd. Usually you put an action first and only then the details

Trouble is, from the existing title it's not clear who had the handicap. So the poster is right to try and fix it.
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