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Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

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Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#141

I wonder how much of this is directly related to age (biological aging), and how much is just someone's brain becoming "full" due to more memories getting added every year? It seems that memories must be stored as embeddings with single multi-neuron assemblies (cortical columns?) storing multiple embeddings as a kind of contents-addressable memory that is able to keep memories distinct due to the very high dimensiona…

The brain does not have the Von Neumann bottleneck. Unlike most current digital systems, the brain doesn’t have a separate memory registry it needs to pull from. Engrams, that is, the physical trace of a memory, are not stable through life. They start out in the hippocampus, but as the stimulus recedes in time without reinforcement, it moves away. No evidence exists though that the memory is encoded in one set of cel…

> This spatial segregation of memory is the worst hangover from the “brain is a computer” analogy.

It's a computer, it's just not a digital computer

But even digital computers can have stuff like processing-in-memory. "Computers" doesn't need to mean whatever architecture usually run as of 2026

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure what you think I’m arguing against but saying that it matches with one of the cognitive models du jour is… odd. The problem with the hopfield model is it simplifies the brain too much. The base unit is “the neuron”. Ok… but what about the Astrocyte? Mathematically you can write it as a different kind of neuron. Or ignore it. But why, as a biologist, must I buy this model which ignores the third partner o…

> Ok, but my argument wasn’t with the OP mentioning capacity, but with their analogy. Am I not allowed to break down that analogy with evidence? If someone makes an analogy between aspects of A and B, then there is an implicit assumed shared understanding that A & B are DIFFERENT, and what is being pointed out is that they nonetheless may be considered as having something, typically fairly abstract, in common. Callin…

Kind of done with the other guy, but reading this reminded me of a paper I saw a while ago but admit I haven't read yet. https://journals.aps.org/prx/pdf/10.1103/6shh-9h5m

It's more about computational complexity it seems but maybe it cites stuff that might interest you.

It's using computational neural networks that no one has ever believed represent the biology of the brain, but I think I must still disclose the following to save the precious time of the genius solving the problem all by himself:

It doesn't fully account for every biological detail ever documented, so it's probably a meaningless "curiosity".

Oh it probably also doesn't account for every detail discovered since publication so even if had value at time of publication it is not worth reading now.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#143

Gonna chuck a thought for you all. In social situations there is someone who talks alot and I think they are able to do so because they have lots of stories they can recall in good detail (maybe not perfect) but 20 year old event they are describing better than I can describe last week. Now I assume they don't have that rare calendar level memory but they do have a huge storage of stories and events. I am pretty jeal…

I also wonder how much difference it makes how often those stories have been recalled for telling or reminiscing or because there's a reminder (like a photo) that brings it up. Maybe people who practice telling stories also get better at telling stories.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your model is correct, it needs to account for those facts. Let me make it simple for you. We have a finite number of neurons in our brain, as do birds, and our brain is attempting to store an ever growing number of memories in those. And, no, this is not a digital computer (is your reading comprehension really so bad?). Nobody, including you, knows exactly where different types of memory are stored, and for my…

Sliding past the mistakes pointed out, shifting goalposts and trying to recover I see. Let’s say I’m a complete moron and don’t know what a sparse embedding is. Pretty please, can you define it for me and then tell me, in detail, where in whatever region of the brain you think this is going on… how is it going on? Explain how “memories must be stored as embeddings with single multi-neuron assemblies (cortical columns…

An embedding space is a (typically) high dimensional space that has enough dimensions such that examples of some type of entity (e.g. faces, words, or thoughts) can be represented as points in that space, positioned such that they are nearby to other entities with which they have things in common.

An entity embedding doesn't need to use all the dimensions of the space it is positioned in - some dimensions may be unused (sometimes represented as a coorrdinate of 0 in that dimension). These are called "sparse" embeddings. For example, an LLM's tokens are represented as embeddings in what is typcially an approximately ~1000 dimensional space, but start out as sparse embeddings just representing a short letter sequence (but then go on to be transformed/augmented with additional information and so become less sparse).

As an example, let's say an embedding space has 10 dimensions, then a couple of sparse embedding examples could be:

  [0 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0]
  [1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0]
These two embeddings have no overlap (where both are non-zero), and the more dimensions you have the more likely it is that two random sparse embedding will have little in common.

Embeddings are used in many types of artificial neural networks, not just LLMs, for example face recognition networks, where they are trained such that similar faces (multiple photos of the same person) are close together in the embedding space, and post-training you can then "look up" any arbitrary photo (in the training set or not) by embedding it and seeing what is nearby in the embedding space, which will be similar looking faces.

Presumably real neural networks used embeddings in a similar way, since, for example, it obviously requires many neurons to represent the many differences between different faces, and there is going to be overlap between the neurons used to represent multiple faces (this is not a computer with one storage location for face #1, and a different location for face #2).

A neural network, real or artificial, uses groups of neurons (e.g. a cortical column) to represent an embedding space, with each neuron corresponding to a dimension. A single group of neurons (column) can store multiple embeddings (e.g. faces) represented as different activity patterns (which neurons are firing), and if these are sparse embeddings then the firing patterns corresponding to different memories stored in the same column will have little in common.

Now, I don't know how you believe associative recall is implemented in the brain - how does someone's voice, or half obscured face, recall their entire face, so feel free to imagine it as implemented however you will, but I'd suggest that in an assembly such as a cortical column that when a set of synaptic inputs are triggered the assembly as a whole will learn to reactivate the entire pattern when only part of the original set of synaptic inputs are triggered, and this is the basis of associative recall. There are papers that suggest exactly how this may work given the cortical column microcircuit.

So, with all that said, the suggestion I was making for why (or at least one reason why) memory degrades with age, with memories blending together, is that with a finite quantity of "storage" (cortical columns) you will eventually be storing so many memories (absent a deliberate forgetting mechanism) that there will inevitably be overlap between the sparse embedddings, and this associative recall will therefore not cleanly recall individual memories but rather recall blended memories according to what they have in common.

Obviously some types of memory are at least initially stored in the hippocampus, so no reason to focus on cortical columns, but I expect the use of embeddings is universal.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ok, but my argument wasn’t with the OP mentioning capacity, but with their analogy. Am I not allowed to break down that analogy with evidence? If someone makes an analogy between aspects of A and B, then there is an implicit assumed shared understanding that A & B are DIFFERENT, and what is being pointed out is that they nonetheless may be considered as having something, typically fairly abstract, in common. Callin…

> Calling a horse's reins as analogous to a cars steering wheel doesn't mean that the person making the analogy can't tell a horse from a car When a person says “I crashed the car because my steering wheel tore, like reigns tear”, they are overfitting their analogy, and it’s perfectly fine to point out the structural and physical differences that make the analogy useless for the question at hand. You have dismissed t…

> You seem in love with your analogy

Where the hell did you get that from?! I mentioned the hash table / embedding space analogy precisely ONCE, in my initial post, and, just to try to avoid people like yourself being triggered by it, I even included "obviously the brain is not a computer".

But you still got triggered by it, still did the dumb take of "a brain is not a computer" (no shit - I just said that), then spent your entire energy on fighting your own strawmen and not once even responding to my actual suggestion.

Now, finally, you are asking "what is a sparse embedding"! Maybe next time don't bother responding to something if you don't even understand what is being talked about.

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