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K2 Horizon: A connected fleet of six open models

ifm.ai

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Re: K2 Horizon: A connected fleet of six open models

#91

Post by lambda »

luciana1u wrote: post #83
adrian_b wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just looked on Huggingface.co, and the training data is there. For example, 3.3 Tbyte for code reasoning, 4.5 Tbyte for mathematical reasoning, 8.4 Tbyte of pre-train behaviors, and so on. I did not compute the sum of the dataset sizes, but it appears to be some tens of Tbyte. Nonetheless, I assume that this amount of training data is more than an order of magnitude less than what OpenAI, Anthropic and the like hav…

[flagged]

Looks like we're still waiting on that, they have placeholder repos but haven't populated them yet:

* https://github.com/ifm-ai/xllm * https://github.com/ifm-ai/horizon-post-train

Their previous model, K2 Think V2, was release with fully open training data and recipe, so I would imagine that they are committed to that, but yeah, the repos for this new model are still just placeholders.

* https://mbzuai.ac.ae/news/k2-think-v2-a-fully-sovereign-reas... * https://github.com/LLM360/Reasoning360

Re: K2 Horizon: A connected fleet of six open models

#92

Post by ceejayoz »

idiotsecant wrote: post #88
dotancohen wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectful disagree. I enjoy reading e.g. Asimov and well-executed journalism. And I completely respect the IP of those people who create these works.

I'm what way does it make sense to respect the intellectual property rights of a dead man?

If IP rights end at death, there are some significant perverse incentives for offing big-name artists and authors and whatnot.

Re: K2 Horizon: A connected fleet of six open models

#93

Post by jchw »

embedding-shape wrote: post #50
kibae wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The training data would need to have a permissive license for this to be possible.

Or, we just need to get this over with and declare any digital data findable via the internet to just be public property of everyone. Everything becomes public, besides stuff you keep locally, and there is no difference anymore, it's all just data anyone can use for whatever. A 1 year grace period for everyone to pull stuff off they don't want to be a part of this bright new open era, then we just scrap everything re…

I hate to invoke Poe's law but, I've now flip-flopped like six times over whether this could be serious.

I think it is serious. In which case, I gotta say, it really seems like you didn't spend much time thinking about this. "A 1 year grave period for everyone to pull stuff off they don't want to be a part of" - How does that work when the Internet is already full of unauthorized reproductions, most of which people aren't even aware of? Even ignoring practical considerations, when literally everyone is basically stuck using the Internet for everything, this seems a bit unfair to anyone who isn't onboard, akin to The Onion's Google Opt-out Village. But there are so many practical issues with this, it would be easier to list the number of problems this doesn't have. You accidentally leak something to the Internet and it becomes commons? What happens when other people leak things to the Internet? How about revenge porn?

Not minor stuff that can easily be papered over, this literally reintroduces the problem of needing to care about the provenance of data again, in a way that can't be automated, which makes the whole thing entirely moot. All just to make training data for AI models easier to distribute?

I'm all for intellectual property reform, maybe even fairly radical. But this just seems like it wasn't thought out.

If this was satire, well, I took the bait. Oddly convincing despite being hard to believe.

Re: K2 Horizon: A connected fleet of six open models

#94

Post by rmunn »

ceejayoz wrote: post #92
idiotsecant wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm what way does it make sense to respect the intellectual property rights of a dead man?

If IP rights end at death, there are some significant perverse incentives for offing big-name artists and authors and whatnot.

The current "lifetime of the author + X years" rules in effect in the United States still carry the same perverse incentive, though the incentive diminishes rapidly as X gets larger; with the very large value of X in effect today the perverse incentive is so small as to be effectively non-existent, but it's still there in theory.

Personally, I'd prefer a fixed term. I know enough independent authors making a living from selling their books that I'm willing to allow the fixed term to be large, like 50 years from date of completion of the work. (With a good definition of "completion" so someone can't cheat by editing a couple lines per year to keep something copyrighted indefinitely). The simpler the rule is, the easier it is to understand, and the harder it is to cheat it. The more complicated you make a rule, the more loopholes get found.

Re: K2 Horizon: A connected fleet of six open models

#96

Post by idiotsecant »

ceejayoz wrote: post #92
idiotsecant wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm what way does it make sense to respect the intellectual property rights of a dead man?

If IP rights end at death, there are some significant perverse incentives for offing big-name artists and authors and whatnot.

There are significant perverse incentives for me shooting you with a gun and taking your money and running away too. It mostly doesn't happen.

Re: K2 Horizon: A connected fleet of six open models

#97

Post by azinman2 »

culi wrote: post #81
jjordan wrote: post #5

Fully open models really need to be a big part of the AI future. That includes all source code, open training data, how it's organized, fed to the model, processed, etc. Until that becomes a thing you're always going to be left wondering what exactly lies underneath the closed model you are using, leaving open the possibility for societal manipulation.

Other than open training data (currently legally impossible), all of this holds for basically every major Chinese-made model. They not only open the weights but publish detailed methodology papers alongside the models in arXiv and even open source the code.

They don’t release all the code.

Re: K2 Horizon: A connected fleet of six open models

#98

Post by SillyUsername »

Not directly related to K2, but why do a lot of the newly released models basically say day zero day support in vllm, slang but often not llama.cpp?

Llama.cpp is then often a few days behind, which given it's the only inference engine supporting older architectures is quite frustrating.

Re: K2 Horizon: A connected fleet of six open models

#99

Post by walrus01 »

SillyUsername wrote: post #98

Not directly related to K2, but why do a lot of the newly released models basically say day zero day support in vllm, slang but often not llama.cpp? Llama.cpp is then often a few days behind, which given it's the only inference engine supporting older architectures is quite frustrating.

Developers with lots of VC money to burn are working on things like B100/B200/B300 which are well supported in VLLM, everything else in terms of supporting more mundane GPUs or other platforms is ancillary to the main task of getting the thing trained and aligned.

Re: K2 Horizon: A connected fleet of six open models

#100

Post by walrus01 »

cogman10 wrote: post #61

My quick review of the 3.7B model (because I was interested) is that it's not to be trusted for coding. It failed my basic test I like to ask models and generated incorrect code. When prompted about the bug, it preceded to start hallucinating non-existent APIs. After doing that it got caught in a loop trying to desk check the solution that didn't work.

I don't know why anyone would expect to trust a model smaller than about the size of qwen 3.6 27B (or 3.8 27B, or 3.6 35B-A3B) for coding. There just isn't enough baked-in knowledge of existing correct code syntax from having vacuumed up various open source projects.

That further extends to concepts like knowing if an API exists as a real thing it has code examples of in its training data set vs. just hallucinating the name of something in an attempt to satisfy the person issuing it a prompt.

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