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The death of San Francisco's Market Street

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Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#61

Post by arjie »

forthwall wrote: post #36

>A lot of that is the Doom Loop — there are simply fewer stores for cyclists to visit on Market Street, so there’s less reason for them to go there. But much of downtown hasn’t collapsed the way Market Street has, and presumably cyclists could use the street as a way to get to places like the Embarcadero, Chinatown, etc. They’re not doing it. Cyclists are a relatively rare sight on Market these days. I originally tho…

The street conditions on Market St. are awful for bicycles though. I've biked that route very often and it was always a jangle machine. Now I have a trail bike with big tires and suspension and that's much nicer on it with the added bonus that I won't fit in the rails like that poor girl who died a couple of weeks ago on the scooter.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#62

Post by woodruffw »

hammock wrote: post #39
Arainach wrote: post #3

So many things wrong with this, but let's call out one of the most obvious: > But a bus will kill a pedestrian just as easily as a car will, which is why Market Street remains empty of pedestrian traffic No citation, just pure nonsense. As a pedestrian and cyclist: bus drivers are great. They have higher licensing standards, their income is tied to maintaining a license, they're well trained and professional. Meanwhi…

Per government data, San Francisco Muni bus pedestrian fatalities are roughly 2 per 100 million miles, while general motor vehicle pedestrian fatalities are a fraction of that, about 0.4 per 100 million miles. Even if you limit strictly to surface streets, Muni buses remain 2-3x more likely to be involved in a pedestrian fatality per mile driven than general vehicles

That makes sense, given that the median car mile probably isn’t in a dense urban core. The more accurate comparison would require us to know pedestrian fatalities per mile in urban areas.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#63

Post by tekla »

forthwall wrote: post #36

>A lot of that is the Doom Loop — there are simply fewer stores for cyclists to visit on Market Street, so there’s less reason for them to go there. But much of downtown hasn’t collapsed the way Market Street has, and presumably cyclists could use the street as a way to get to places like the Embarcadero, Chinatown, etc. They’re not doing it. Cyclists are a relatively rare sight on Market these days. I originally tho…

Key work relatively.

If that chart is to believed, a 50% drop in bike usage since before the pandemic does seem to make bikes relatively rare currently.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#64

Post by dkarl »

jrockway wrote: post #53

The article really wants to blame reducing automobile traffic, but I really think you could make Market St. a combined speedway / parking lot (whatever it is that car drivers think is ideal) and it wouldn't bring business back. Remote work dominates what happened to our cities. Same-day online shopping delivery is what most people do instead of physically going to stores. So I don't think anyone is surprised that dow…

That matches my impressions. Narratives on crime seem to lag reality pretty severely. I first visited SF back in the 1990s, when I don't think its reputation was much different from other big cities, and saw neighborhoods that looked really grim. The Tenderloin then lived up to its reputation now. Even I, as a naive adventurous guy in my twenties, had the sense to be scared in some places. I went back twenty-five years later expecting it to be much worse, having heard so many things about it going to shit, and instead found it much better.

As for basic toiletries being locked up, I've encountered that in other big cities, too. I had to find a Target employee to liberate dandruff shampoo for me in Brooklyn, and while I was wandering the aisles looking for someone, it did occur to me that Amazon could deliver to my hotel.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#65

Post by charcircuit »

Arainach wrote: post #32
charcircuit wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>their income is tied to maintaining a license So are car owners. Most jobs don't allow for remote work.

If a car owner loses their license, they keep driving without a license. It's also much harder to lose their license. CDLs are much easier to lose and your employer knows if you have one or not, so it's directly tied to your income.

No they can't.

>A person may not drive a motor vehicle upon a highway, unless the person then holds a valid driver’s license issued under this code

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#67

Post by sxp »

nitwit005 wrote: post #66

A bit south of SF, the city of San Mateo has kept downtown B street, their main downtown road, closed to all traffic ( https://cityofsanmateo.org/4448/B-St-Pedestrian-Mall-Improve... ). That area seems just as popular as before. You still park in the same garages.

Note that San Mateo closed off the street to all traffic and turned it into a pedestrian walking/eating area. So it's used for events. Market Street still allows traffic so people can't wander around in it.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#68

Post by jjav »

jrockway wrote: post #53

The article really wants to blame reducing automobile traffic, but I really think you could make Market St. a combined speedway / parking lot (whatever it is that car drivers think is ideal) and it wouldn't bring business back. Remote work dominates what happened to our cities. Same-day online shopping delivery is what most people do instead of physically going to stores. So I don't think anyone is surprised that dow…

[dead]

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#70

Post by kansface »

fishtoaster wrote: post #37
Arainach wrote: post #3

So many things wrong with this, but let's call out one of the most obvious: > But a bus will kill a pedestrian just as easily as a car will, which is why Market Street remains empty of pedestrian traffic No citation, just pure nonsense. As a pedestrian and cyclist: bus drivers are great. They have higher licensing standards, their income is tied to maintaining a license, they're well trained and professional. Meanwhi…

As a cyclist, I couldn't agree more. Cars are crazy murder machines, pedestrians will jump out at you just for fun, and the worst of the bunch is other cyclists! But a bus- with a bus you know where you stand. They're slow, they're predictable, you can see the coming a mile away- I've never felt unsafe around SF Muni.

I biked 3x weekly to work for a decade from NoPa. Muni busses repeatedly “tried” to kill me - so much so that going up McAllister, I’d hug the double yellows to keep buses from precariously passing me and then cutting me off every other block. The ass end of accordions in particular would rest half way into the other lane, leaving absolutely no where for me to go, and no ability to start from a stop in the middle of the road going up hill in the wrong gear (with other cars and buses soon to be wizzing by). I’d classify the overall behavior as between casual indifference to my safety (let alone me as a person) and outright contempt for my existence.
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