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The death of San Francisco's Market Street

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51–60 of 89 posts

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#51
post #3

So many things wrong with this, but let's call out one of the most obvious: > But a bus will kill a pedestrian just as easily as a car will, which is why Market Street remains empty of pedestrian traffic No citation, just pure nonsense. As a pedestrian and cyclist: bus drivers are great. They have higher licensing standards, their income is tied to maintaining a license, they're well trained and professional. Meanwhi…

[deleted]

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#52
post #2

My dream is that the San Francisco Centre mall would be transformed into a huge place dedicated to having fun: restaurants, bars, gaming centers, roller skating, play spaces, live music and so on.

Add in shops, and I think you've just described a mall.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#53
The article really wants to blame reducing automobile traffic, but I really think you could make Market St. a combined speedway / parking lot (whatever it is that car drivers think is ideal) and it wouldn't bring business back. Remote work dominates what happened to our cities. Same-day online shopping delivery is what most people do instead of physically going to stores. So I don't think anyone is surprised that downtowns are mostly empty office buildings, that's the only thing the space can be used for economically, and even that doesn't work anymore.

I spend a decent amount of time in SF and don't find it particularly unsafe (for a 40-ish woman). Definitely a little subjectively more sketchy than most places I frequent in NYC, but there just isn't any reason to be there, so nobody is there. That is kind of how that stuff goes.

People always seem to make things about crime, but I think overreaction is what killed retail. I went to Safeway to buy some toothpast and I had to have an employee pick out the toothpaste and escort me to the front of the store to buy it. I wanted to buy more stuff, but the employee didn't seem that interested in obliging that, so I just got everything else on Amazon and made a note to not visit again. That's why retail is dead. It's not bike lanes. It's not crime. It's that it sucks.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#54
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a car owner loses their license, they keep driving without a license. It's also much harder to lose their license. CDLs are much easier to lose and your employer knows if you have one or not, so it's directly tied to your income.

Then they get picked up by an ALPR scan and have their car impounded? Seen it happen many times.

An ALPR doesn't know who's driving.

You don't need a valid drivers' license to renew a car registration in most areas.

In most US cities the cops won't even pull you over if you don't have a license plate, much less track you down and impound a vehicle.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#55
post #3

So many things wrong with this, but let's call out one of the most obvious: > But a bus will kill a pedestrian just as easily as a car will, which is why Market Street remains empty of pedestrian traffic No citation, just pure nonsense. As a pedestrian and cyclist: bus drivers are great. They have higher licensing standards, their income is tied to maintaining a license, they're well trained and professional. Meanwhi…

There’s evidence for the original comment likely being incorrect. NYC turned a major street into a “busway”. So cars can enter, but they have to make the first right, so they don’t use it as a thruway. Pedestrian traffic in that area has exploded. Injuries and deaths have plummeted. As a pedestrian crossing the street is incredibly safer if there’s a massive bus driving at a steady speed (bus drivers won’t speed to c…

I agree overall. That said, there isn't really a difference between 14th Street and the other nearby numbered streets in Manhattan. Market Street connects 2 different grids and doesn't have a clean alternative.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#56
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they get picked up by an ALPR scan and have their car impounded? Seen it happen many times.

An ALPR doesn't know who's driving. You don't need a valid drivers' license to renew a car registration in most areas. In most US cities the cops won't even pull you over if you don't have a license plate, much less track you down and impound a vehicle.

If the registration is to someone without a license, they’ll definitely pull you over. Seen it happen in a couple cities now.

But sure, some cities won’t even do felony warrant service.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#57
post #2

My dream is that the San Francisco Centre mall would be transformed into a huge place dedicated to having fun: restaurants, bars, gaming centers, roller skating, play spaces, live music and so on.

Seems tough. The Ikea Saluhall is not far and since we live nearby we walk by[0] and it makes sense that that location lost many of its food places. There just isn't enough foot traffic. Alternative locations are much more popular. Stonestown is a much more popular mall for non-adults just because it's generally safer. For the SF Centre to become something like that it would require enforcement actions that I suspect would be unpopular in the city.

0: https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/images/4/46/Julie%2C_Astra%2...

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#58

The article really wants to blame reducing automobile traffic, but I really think you could make Market St. a combined speedway / parking lot (whatever it is that car drivers think is ideal) and it wouldn't bring business back. Remote work dominates what happened to our cities. Same-day online shopping delivery is what most people do instead of physically going to stores. So I don't think anyone is surprised that dow…

I've been doing Doordash on an e-bike in the city over the last year and a half. The toothpaste is locked up because groups of people were just going into stores with garbage bags, filling them, and walking out. I saw three in one day once. It was really chronic for a little while. Prop 36 passed and criminalized that kind of group theft, and then it all but stopped early this year, but retail hasn't caught up to this fact yet, and probably wont ever.

I think pretty much everyone agrees though that peoples habits have just changed with work from home. The cost of having to wait on an employee has been externalized to people shopping for a living in batch orders, and those people don't mind waiting given that we're only paid for minutes that we're actively on an order (Prop 22).

So yeah, retails not completely dead, just serves a different audience now.

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#59
post #42

One of the primary reasons for removing cars from Market Street was keeping buses and street cars moving. There was a huge citywide program to make buses faster, and many routes converge on Market St and travel some portion of it. The routing, including overhead lines, makes use of all four lanes. Cars slowed things down tremendously. Advertising the move as an anti-car policy was just convenient politics. To a lesse…

I think whoever the bike lobby is (SFBC?), they've succeeded in making things much more bicycle friendly than they used to be. Valencia, and even the new Folsom bike lanes are pretty cool. The Howard lanes are not so great but the fact that they exist is fantastic. The fact that the bike infrastructure is better in places where people didn't live (Treasure Island, the newer Mission Bay areas) points to the primary constraint here, I think, which is that most San Franciscans would prefer to keep things as they are. A city's ability to adapt to these things is mostly a function of its population age distribution and SF is mostly older people and few children and optimizes for that population primarily.

I remember I found an old video I took on a Sony action cam (useless device, it fogs up) and while all these places are still pretty bad, nearby Alemany does have green paint which is better than nothing. https://youtu.be/cYoJ4S7G5tc?t=98

Re: The death of San Francisco's Market Street

#60
Something similar happened to Broadway in New York City.

It used to be a main thoroughfare, packed with cars in bumper-to-bumper traffic. But after the city decided to pedestrianize it, by banning cars, adding bike lanes, and converting much of the street into outdoor cafes, it's not the same place.

There's no more chaos and now it's a quiet and pleasant street. It's quieter, safer, and more peaceful than before. But it's lost that chaotic and vibrant energy that made it so famous.

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