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The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

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Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't what it means to have a shortage. In many cases Americans are discouraged from applying for these jobs. They can overspecify the criteria or be overly skeptical about your resume, write the job listing poorly, or hide the job listing entirely. What a shortage really means from their perspective is that they can't find enough workers for the price they want to pay (as opposed to what they can afford). Howev…

"What a shortage really means from their perspective is that they can't find enough workers for the price they want to pay" Exactly - we are in agreement

We are mostly in agreement. I'm pretty sure we need to sympathize with employers in situations like this, at times, though. It doesn't help anyone to reduce every shortage to a supposed moral fault in the employers lol. At what point do we become sympathetic to them? When their business is crucial to society and can't function without the workers at the given price? Or is it when the market rate for a job is offensive to other kinds of workers at jobs of similar difficulty? I think the societal need is a plausible reason, but it leads to this slippery slope we started off complaining about. It boils down to: who's to say how expensive is too expensive, or that a business should fail because of a politically imposed scarcity of labor?

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#123
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have seen H1Bs used for basic Java development, Desktop Support [...] Working in non-FAANG corporate America, these types of roles are the only thing thing I've ever seen H1B hires used for. They've run the gamut from incompetent to quite good, but none have ever been the "best and brightest". It saddens me that the left no longer seems to care about protecting American workers.

You know, they used to. Bernie spoke against relocating refugees (from Serbia or something) back in the day due to the fact he had unemployed local Vermonters. They used to care. They had cared less since the second Reagan admin, but completely abandoned any pretense after GW's first term win. What I've seen is a local workforce (typically, then a mix of 1st gen Americans) being asked to train their replacements. Som…

You're right, they used to care or at least said the right things. Then I guess they realized that they could get more voters by simply importing them lol...

>What I've seen is a local workforce (typically, then a mix of 1st gen Americans) being asked to train their replacements. Some replacements on Visas and some remote. But what gall to ask you to train your [cheaper] replacements.

This destroys their entire argument about the necessity of the imports, even if it is relatively rare. (Note that I don't think it's rare to be replaced by foreigners. I think it's rare to be forced or incentivized to train them, especially with knowledge that you will actually be replaced.)

Recently I heard something crazy like 9 of 10 new jobs since the pandemic is held by foreign-born people, even as many US-born are unemployed. 20% of US-born men is unemployed. This is not a primary source but it should get you started if you're interested: https://www.numbersusa.org/blog/nine-out-of-ten-new-jobs-hav...

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They can't prove themselves abroad. Consider the example of "Attention is all you need" paper. That paper came into existence thanks to talented people from around the world coming together in one place and then collaborating. It would not have happened if the contributors stayed in their own countries. I think this is a stretch, especially now that we have the internet. I also wouldn't be opposed to non-immigrant r…

> I think this is a stretch, especially now that we have the internet. We disagree on your first paragraph, agree on the rest.

I'm surprised you can't find something to agree with in the first paragraph. I feel compelled to restate and clarify points I glossed over, to see which one you disagree with:

1. Foreign researchers can communicate with colleagues fairly well over the internet (in real time, even). Physical presence is not required to do academic research, at least in mathematics or CS.

2. Degree mills, fake credentials, paper mills, etc. exist to get names on stuff for a fee. This is used to game the immigration system.

3. Many US degree programs are used as a vector for immigration more than education, and people who immigrate this way usually try to meet the minimum requirements to stay in the US and do little beyond that.

4. Even when it comes to research, most research just isn't that good and doesn't contribute that much to society.

5. Getting jobs in academia is difficult.

6. Immigration lowers wages due to the basic laws of economics.

7. Given the fact that we have mediocre researchers in abundance, such that they can't find work in academia, there is negligible societal benefit to importing mediocre foreign researchers en masse. Additionally, this is devastating to the local labor market.

8. All other things equal (to the extent it is reasonable to determine), a country should try to ensure that native citizens get priority in hiring, rather than importing replacements.

If you disagree with #8, perhaps you should consider who is going to be willing to spill their blood and give up their treasure to defend a country that undermines them at every turn.

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#125

I have seen H1Bs used for basic Java development, Desktop Support, CRM managemetn, Marketing, Project Managers, and all sorts of basic office work. The idea its used for the best and brightest is absurd. When you also count the massive fraud in H1B, people looking for kickbacks, racial preferences, lying on resumes (I once interviewed an H1B with 4 pages on their resume, couldn't answer a single question from what I…

> I have seen H1Bs used for basic Java development, Desktop Support [...] Working in non-FAANG corporate America, these types of roles are the only thing thing I've ever seen H1B hires used for. They've run the gamut from incompetent to quite good, but none have ever been the "best and brightest". It saddens me that the left no longer seems to care about protecting American workers.

> “… the left no longer seems to care about protecting American workers.”

???

I can’t imagine why this is a left/right issue. Progressive/conservative issue.

It’s an economic issue. It was said in the article, “global enterprises”. It’s MBAs, and not “Medicare for all radicals”.

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#126
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Please don't register accounts to post inflammatory comments about nationalities/races here. We've banned the account, as new accounts that sign up just to post comments like this don't generally become positive contributors on HN.

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What a shortage really means from their perspective is that they can't find enough workers for the price they want to pay" Exactly - we are in agreement

We are mostly in agreement. I'm pretty sure we need to sympathize with employers in situations like this, at times, though. It doesn't help anyone to reduce every shortage to a supposed moral fault in the employers lol. At what point do we become sympathetic to them? When their business is crucial to society and can't function without the workers at the given price? Or is it when the market rate for a job is offensiv…

> we need to sympathize with employers in situations like this, at times

Of course, at times, yes. Not at this time in American history, clearly.

> When their business is crucial to society and can't function without the workers at the given price

Yes, absolutely, if by "given price" you mean "the price Americans should reasonably be paid". But this particular combination of two things is probably nonexistent.

> a business should fail because of a politically imposed scarcity of labor?

Again, probably not what would actually happen. If businesses are forced to hire Americans, they would not "fail". Rather, investors/leadership may choose to go do some other more-profitable business, but not because the business can't survive. We are talking about the lack of socially normal humans in US leadership, not economic constraints. I.e. the kind of person you have to compel to be a non-negative force in society via legislation. Not every country, now or in history, has to deal with this problem. It's definitely a weird one. But it's what we're dealing with right now. Yes, there have always been unscrupulous Scrooges among those running things, but often their goals happen to benefit society as a whole enough that we don't have to step in this dramatically.

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are mostly in agreement. I'm pretty sure we need to sympathize with employers in situations like this, at times, though. It doesn't help anyone to reduce every shortage to a supposed moral fault in the employers lol. At what point do we become sympathetic to them? When their business is crucial to society and can't function without the workers at the given price? Or is it when the market rate for a job is offensiv…

> we need to sympathize with employers in situations like this, at times Of course, at times, yes. Not at this time in American history, clearly. > When their business is crucial to society and can't function without the workers at the given price Yes, absolutely, if by "given price" you mean "the price Americans should reasonably be paid". But this particular combination of two things is probably nonexistent. > a bu…

>>When their business is crucial to society and can't function without the workers at the given price

>Yes, absolutely, if by "given price" you mean "the price Americans should reasonably be paid". But this particular combination of two things is probably nonexistent.

That isn't really what I meant. It is conceivable that there could be a critical business for which there are simply not enough workers to meet demand at the price customers can afford. I think there is an underlying assumption that if the money is there, the workers will be too. Generally, that is how things work in the long run, but in the case of skilled vocations there can be a long lag before qualified people step in.

What I'm describing here is just acknowledging the demand curve for labor and its implications. It's very basic economics. If the input costs for a product go up too high, it will necessarily reduce the consumption regardless of how badly wanted the product happens to be. I don't think it is tenable in the long term to have have a majority of people in society clamoring for something that is too expensive because of labor, especially to the benefit of a cartel of workers who these people also regard as overpaid. I think the immigration of medical doctors is one of these in the extreme. Most people think doctors are paid well, and do not care if doctors don't like immigration because they perceive the prices to be too high. There may be many reasons that healthcare is expensive, but a tight supply of qualified labor is obviously one of these.

>> [Who's to say that] a business should fail because of a politically imposed scarcity of labor?

>Again, probably not what would actually happen. If businesses are forced to hire Americans, they would not "fail". Rather, investors/leadership may choose to go do some other more-profitable business, but not because the business can't survive.

I think you are forgetting that businesses can and do lose money all the time. Most businesses fail, in fact. The point of investing is to make a profit. If that cannot be attained after a reasonable ramp up period, then investors will eat their losses and go away. That is the definition of a business not surviving. If you can't show that your expenses (including labor) will eventually result in a profit, then you don't have a viable business idea and no investor would sink money into it.

The classic case of this happening is all the factories that closed due to competition in China and elsewhere. Those factories indeed had to hire Americans for their physical proximity, if nothing else, and at that price point they could not sustain themselves. Even having higher quality did not save most of them. Consumers didn't care enough about quality or patriotism to sustain those factories.

>We are talking about the lack of socially normal humans in US leadership, not economic constraints. I.e. the kind of person you have to compel to be a non-negative force in society via legislation.

It is totally an economic problem: oversupply of labor driven by market dynamics. The solution that helps American workers is to slow down immigration by a lot. It has knock-on effects though, such as higher prices and potentially lower quality for a lot of things. It would also shift people around within the domestic economy.

>Yes, there have always been unscrupulous Scrooges among those running things, but often their goals happen to benefit society as a whole enough that we don't have to step in this dramatically.

Profit-seeking behavior lowers prices for everyone in the long run. If I were to summarize the problem I would say: Extreme exchange ratios and rapid/easy movement of resources internationally are causing threats to certain sectors of the workforce, including national security threats and impoverishment of skilled workers in wealthy nations (especially the US).

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