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Qantas Airbus A380 engine failure in 2010 (2023)

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101–110 of 121 posts

Re: Qantas Airbus A380 engine failure in 2010 (2023)

#101
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd put the containment armor directly around the engine. It wouldn't take dozens of inches. Whether you use Newton's rule of thumb (penetration ends when the mass of armor displaced equals the mass of the shell that hit it) or more modern rules - a failing turbine disk is neither a precision-engineered anti-armor weapon, nor a heavy battleship shell. I'd bet the plane would still be able to take off, if it made it…

Full containment is probably possible, but it would render the aircraft nearly useless, not just economically uncompetitive. A 70kg chunk of nickel alloy is very dense, and at 800m/s , that’s 20 MJ. Thats about the same as 5kg of TNT, but focused on a small area. For comparison, a modern 120mm artillery shell fired from a tank or similar field artillery has 10-20 MJ of kinetic energy. A couple thousand kg of armour c…

> A 70kg chunk of nickel alloy is very dense, and at 800m/s , that’s 20 MJ.

> For comparison, a modern 120mm artillery shell fired from a tank or similar ...

Yes. But when the goal is kinetic penetration of modern armour, they don't use artillery shells. Instead -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour-piercing_fin-stabilized...

- which bear no resemblance to a failed turbine disk. And have about twice the muzzle velocity, which makes huge difference in penetrating a modern armour systems. Ditto their far greater density, vs. nickel alloy.

OTOH, your "A couple thousand kg of armour could likely contain..." seems too charitable. High-bypass jet engines are big. Beyond that, I'm more optimistic about mitigating shocks and such.

A critical parameter here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A380#A380F The freight variant was to have a 6,400 mile range carrying 150t of payload. So we could squander 25t per engine on disk containment and shock mitigation, and still have a 50t payload. Or a 3-digit passenger headcount.

Bottom line, there is no real-world difference between your "nearly useless" and my "disastrously uneconomical". Neither one will be designed, let alone built.

For the A10, I'd say military priorities would always block full disk containment - because every pound used for that is a pound they don't have for more weapons or munitions or range or armour or fuel or runway length or electronics or whatever. And over most of the 360 which disk fragments could exit a warhog's engines, there's nothing critical which they could hit.

Re: Qantas Airbus A380 engine failure in 2010 (2023)

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't, the A380 is designed to fly with just one operational engine.

There is no way an a380 is maintaining level flight with only one engine.

I think the person above you is mistaken. The A380 is a quadjet. It is certified under FAR (Federal Aviation Regulations, USA) part 25 and JAR (Joint Aviation Regulations, Europe) part 25.

One of the requirements of FAR/JAR 25 is that the directional control can be maintained when two critical engines (that means under the same wing) fail.

Re: Qantas Airbus A380 engine failure in 2010 (2023)

#105
post #85
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Boeing, there was organizational dysfunction leading to a direct safety issue. During the development of the A380, the German and French sides were using different versions of the CATIA PLM software (i.e. CAD), which prevented people from looking at a single unified model of the plane. One concrete problem it caused was major problems with the wiring harnesses, which led to a 2 year delay in the program, and 3 e…

Thanks for mentioning the A380 CAD snafu, it made me rewatch one of my favourite clips [0]. The guy taking his hat off makes me burst into nervous giggles every time lol. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1k80h9j/...

Here's the companion, "we promise we fixed it."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBbA9uKP-mA

Re: Qantas Airbus A380 engine failure in 2010 (2023)

#107
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full containment is probably possible, but it would render the aircraft nearly useless, not just economically uncompetitive. A 70kg chunk of nickel alloy is very dense, and at 800m/s , that’s 20 MJ. Thats about the same as 5kg of TNT, but focused on a small area. For comparison, a modern 120mm artillery shell fired from a tank or similar field artillery has 10-20 MJ of kinetic energy. A couple thousand kg of armour c…

> A 70kg chunk of nickel alloy is very dense, and at 800m/s , that’s 20 MJ. > For comparison, a modern 120mm artillery shell fired from a tank or similar ... Yes. But when the goal is kinetic penetration of modern armour, they don't use artillery shells. Instead - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour-piercing_fin-stabilized... - which bear no resemblance to a failed turbine disk. And have about twice the muzzle veloc…

Good counterpoints all, I think. I’m impressed that we could write off 50t and still have an airplane. That seemed so preposterous that I did not consider it, honestly. Turns out big stuff is big.

Now we can go to the running of the bulls with our respective napkin backs, and see who attracts the bull!

Re: Qantas Airbus A380 engine failure in 2010 (2023)

#108
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A 70kg chunk of nickel alloy is very dense, and at 800m/s , that’s 20 MJ. > For comparison, a modern 120mm artillery shell fired from a tank or similar ... Yes. But when the goal is kinetic penetration of modern armour, they don't use artillery shells. Instead - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour-piercing_fin-stabilized... - which bear no resemblance to a failed turbine disk. And have about twice the muzzle veloc…

Good counterpoints all, I think. I’m impressed that we could write off 50t and still have an airplane. That seemed so preposterous that I did not consider it, honestly. Turns out big stuff is big. Now we can go to the running of the bulls with our respective napkin backs, and see who attracts the bull!

>>I’m impressed that we could write off 50t and still have an airplane.

100t actually - 25t per engine, of which there are four. And the plane could still carry 50 tonnes of cargo/people.

Re: Qantas Airbus A380 engine failure in 2010 (2023)

#109
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it seems to me that the whole failure could have been prevented with a bunch of temperature sensors spread throughout the engine, and a good anomaly detection system.

Don't know why you're getting faded out, because having worked on exactly this engine, software mitigations were put in place. That's exactly your `anomaly detection system` It was a belt-and-braces fix, because the primary fix was of course to manufacture the engines correctly in the first place. The "lots of temperature sensors" thing is actually easier said than done; jet engines already have lots of temperature s…

Though in this case the software mitigation was turbine overspeed detection, not overtemperature detection.

Re: Qantas Airbus A380 engine failure in 2010 (2023)

#110
post #67

> the in-flight entertainment system, which featured a live view of the aircraft from a tail-mounted camera. The digital stream clearly showed a much more literal stream of fuel pouring from the left wing and into the aircraft’s wake, which was also visible with the naked eye from the lower deck. Johnson proceeded down to check for himself, at which point he also observed for the first time that there were two gaping…

Infamously, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191#A...

This flight had a new system to allow passengers to see what the pilots saw. There's a chance that the passengers got to see the panic in the cockpit and watch their fates coming.

I have seen claims that this caused such systems to be avoided for a while.

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