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What I've Learned from Hacker News

paulgraham.com

61–70 of 126 posts

Re: What I've Learned from Hacker News

#61

What a disaster that would be, to attract thousands of smart people to a site that caused them to waste lots of time. Wow, it's like university. :-) Ok, now that I've made that moronic joke, being HN I know I'll need to add some more substance to counter balance the negative effect. This, in essence is one of the reasons I love coming here - For users that care it's self policing, in other words, what Paul says regar…

For users that care it's self policing

FWIW, there are a lot of users that don't care. I know some of my highest-rated comments here have been one-liner jokes. This means that the community doesn't really consciously think about "policing", they just click things that they agree with or that made them giggle.

(As an aside, have you ever read a really well-written post that you completely disagreed with, and didn't upmod it? I have. It's hard to promote people that are wrong. Human nature trumps "self policing", it seems.)

Re: What I've Learned from Hacker News

#62
Part of the reason Hacker News has maintained its character is the people it attracts. The people it attracts, hackers, are drawn in by the subject matter of hacking, which hardly appeals to the lowest common denominator of the internet. I'd like to see the same approach taken with sport or politics. Can an internet community be created that discusses politics or even religion in an intelligent and respectful way? It might be possible, likely way harder than hacker news to pull off.

Re: What I've Learned from Hacker News

#63
Might be a minor point, but - pg, could you elaborate on the distinction between "bad people" and "people behaving badly"? I read most of the "Dilution" section as saying that bad behavior is situational (someone who flames on reddit posts intelligent comments here), except for the following blurb in the middle:

"forbidding bad behavior does tend to keep away bad people".

Is the implication that these "bad people" can't possibly behave any other way except badly?

Re: What I've Learned from Hacker News

#65
post #42

I think a lot of the growth problems might have to do with the devaluation of karma. The solution to this might actually raise the quality of comments and front page stories. When I posted a comment here a year and a half ago, I felt like each vote was a real, actual smart person praising or agreeing with what I had said. Each point had a lot of meaning, and back then 5 points was considered a pretty good score. Now…

Sounds like a textbook example of Dunbar's number. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number Maybe a good solution is to break the community down into neighborhoods of ~150 people.

I've proposed this before: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=391292

The big question would be how to propagate submissions and comments between communities. Especially if each community develops its own unique character. I've thought about organizing each community onto branches of a B-tree and letting upvoted submissions move up the tree, though my intuition says that this might not scale, as one community might overpower the rest.

Anyway it would be interesting if someone builds it.

Re: What I've Learned from Hacker News

#66
post #42

I think a lot of the growth problems might have to do with the devaluation of karma. The solution to this might actually raise the quality of comments and front page stories. When I posted a comment here a year and a half ago, I felt like each vote was a real, actual smart person praising or agreeing with what I had said. Each point had a lot of meaning, and back then 5 points was considered a pretty good score. Now…

I agree, and I think that the solution is simple: limit people's ability to give out upvotes. Maybe restrict people's weekly upvotes to c * ln(karma) + d or something. (Make d small!) Or have upvotes actually cost you like a tenth of a karma point. (Dunno if karma should be turned into currency, though, since then I could imagine people trying to game the system.)

This solves another problem that really bothers me: an upvote to a really insightful comment (like the parent) has the same weight as an upvote to a comment that's merely useful, or, worse, that merely shares my feelings on some topic. Insight (in my opinion) should always count for more than anything else, and I think limiting upvotes will make it so -- because I think most people actually do care about it most.

- EDIT - Another (even more dire, IMO) problem that might have a similar solution: comment threads are way too long. Only four or five months ago I could make a comment and I'd be absolutely certain that at least a few reasonable people would read it, and so it never felt like luck when my comments moved up; my good comments inevitably got upvotes, and my mediocre comments stayed where they were. Now comments get lost in the wash. I'm tacking this edit onto this comment partially because it's tangentially relevant, but mostly because I don't have faith that anybody will ever see it otherwise.

That's a huge problem, and I suspect that it is in fact the fundamental cause of the degeneration of other social news sites. When people know that their contributions will be noted, they act like they're participating in a conversation. When the success of a comment depends on a metaphorical die roll, I think people adopt the mentality of, "I'll throw shit at the wall and see what sticks."

My solution would be to limit weekly "root" comments (comments that respond directly to a submission, not to other comments) with a formula similar to the one above (c ln(karma) + d), though with the caveat that comments that get more than a few upvotes get "refunded." But frankly I'd endure any kind of unreasonable limitation if it would get rid of the feeling that this community is gradually but inexorably turning into a mob.

Re: What I've Learned from Hacker News

#67
post #42

I think a lot of the growth problems might have to do with the devaluation of karma. The solution to this might actually raise the quality of comments and front page stories. When I posted a comment here a year and a half ago, I felt like each vote was a real, actual smart person praising or agreeing with what I had said. Each point had a lot of meaning, and back then 5 points was considered a pretty good score. Now…

After thinking about the topic for the past year or so I sat down and wrote up the major problem I found with using up/down voting for comments in a rather long blog entry

http://benjamin-meyer.blogspot.com/2009/02/comments-rating-s...

I would be extremely surprised if HN changed or even tried a different system, but hopefully it can be useful for developers who are creating the next generation social new site. The key point: The number of points a good comment gets is directly related to the number of users that read the comment.

Re: What I've Learned from Hacker News

#69
post #15
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Years ago, I figured that I could get lots of karma by creating an auto-submit script to submit stories from techcrunch and paulgraham.com. Best of all, if another auto-submit script submitted the same story a bit later, they would actually be voting up your story, so the more auto-submitters existed, the better. Sure, more competition from other scripts and users sounds like it's bad. However, I calculated that the…

I know most of the highest karma users and I'm pretty sure they're not using scripts. I also have lots of code watching voting patterns (e.g. for voting rings) and though it's common for a user to submit many stories from one site, the evidence suggests nearly all of them are doing it to drive traffic, not game karma.

though it's common for a user to submit many stories from one site...

Hmm, looks like 15 of my 21 submissions have been from my blog.

... the evidence suggests nearly all of them are doing it to drive traffic...

Ouch. Any chance that I can convince you that I honestly think that the articles I submit are of interest to hackers? After all, I don't submit all of my blog posts here... just almost all.

Re: What I've Learned from Hacker News

#70
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know most of the highest karma users and I'm pretty sure they're not using scripts. I also have lots of code watching voting patterns (e.g. for voting rings) and though it's common for a user to submit many stories from one site, the evidence suggests nearly all of them are doing it to drive traffic, not game karma.

though it's common for a user to submit many stories from one site... Hmm, looks like 15 of my 21 submissions have been from my blog. ... the evidence suggests nearly all of them are doing it to drive traffic... Ouch. Any chance that I can convince you that I honestly think that the articles I submit are of interest to hackers? After all, I don't submit all of my blog posts here... just almost all.

Don't worry, there's nothing wrong with submitting your own stuff. It's only a problem if it's offtopic.
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