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How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

danluu.com

971–980 of 1001 posts

Re: How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

#971

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ed Zitron is a grifter. Period. I highly doubt he believes any of the stuff he writes himself. He plays a role in society which is the role that tells people AI is going to fail so those who don't participate in or benefit from AI feel better. They sign up to his subscriptions and pay him money to confirm their own bias. If you look at the sub reddit r/betteroffline where these people gather and worship Zitron, most…

Doesn't it say something about our society that (a) it's known (at least among smart people, however 'smart' is defined) that AI is going to take away jobs, and (b) the way its treated is that people gather to online discussion forums to worship someone saying the thing that will replace their jobs isn't going to do it (but in actuality, eventually will)? In other words, who's actually doing anything to help the peop…

Why do you think there is no one or nothing that is helping people who lose their jobs?

Re: How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

#972
post #3

> For any of his posts that I read, while there are numbers thrown around, the numbers don't actually connect to a coherent argument. In many cases, as we saw above, the numbers don't even really support his argument (such as an MAU decline in Facebook causing Meta financial problems which would then cause Meta to spuriously insert AI in places it doesn't belong). I suspect he's relying on people's eyes glazing over…

> gets hold of leaked numbers that nobody else has, for example - but he then wraps those numbers in his own extremely biased commentary. You can think of yourself and draw your own conclusions (or we have completely lost the aptitude since "ai" started off?). You don't have to agree with Ed, or even follow his conclusions.

Like I said, "This makes it much harder to evaluate how credible the new information is."

Re: How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

#973
post #827

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My recollection is a couple years before it popped everybody (except tech CEOs going public or investing tens of millions in dog food delivery infrastructure) was in disbelief it hadn't happened yet

yeah I also remember a lot of talk about the bubble for 18 months to 2 years before it actually popped. i think we're in that (quite long) stage with AI right now where most halfway smart people "know" but they're still invested due to the greater fool theory and still talking their book.

I'm invested because I "know" it'll pop and I also "know" it'll eventually work and revolutionize everything.

What do I have to lose? I'm just going to get decrepit and die anyway if it doesn't work out.

Re: How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

#974

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RIM is dying now -> useful for stock trading RIM is dying in the next four years -> useful for life planning. Anyway, i just wanna get on record that i predict an ai bubble pop event in the next 12 months.

> Anyway, i just wanna get on record that i predict an ai bubble pop event in the next 12 months. If it happens on Sep 2nd 2027 you'd be wrong though.

Next 12 months: Oct 2026, Nov 2026, Dec 2026, Jan 2027, Feb 2027, Mar 2027, Apr 2027, May 2027, Jun 2027, Jul 2027, Aug 2027, Sep 2027.

So, if we're being pedantic, I'm not wrong until Oct 1st 2027 or later. But I'm also wrong if it happens this month ;)

Re: How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

#975
post #972

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> gets hold of leaked numbers that nobody else has, for example - but he then wraps those numbers in his own extremely biased commentary. You can think of yourself and draw your own conclusions (or we have completely lost the aptitude since "ai" started off?). You don't have to agree with Ed, or even follow his conclusions.

Like I said, "This makes it much harder to evaluate how credible the new information is."

I still fail to see the problem here. If you disagree with numbers / conclusions he makes, I would be happy to hear/read your opinion on that (no sarcasm at all).

It makes me a bit concerned seeing how many people say oh he is this and that so I wouldn't even read or help him. For G'ds sake, what happened to healthy discussions? If you disagree, lets just share opinions and let people judge. But if we just recuse ourselves from it, it will let opinions unchallenged.

Re: How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

#976

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I've noticed is that since LLMs came out, scientific papers with poor English have essentially disappeared. Just one of the many ways that AI is changing the world. People are using AI in all kinds of fields.

Oh c’mon. You must be trolling. Great, now we have have scientific papers with formally correct English, but data and sources of which are fabricated and most of the paragraphs are utter nonsense. And publications are drowning on these. Oh thanks for changing the world!

The good news is that, while the number of fabricated papers have accelerated, so too is our ability to detect fabrications. Also, fabricated papers were a massive problem well before AI was useful in research. I think it's fair to characterise AI as our saviour here instead of the villain.

The broader issue pertains to the [Replication Crisis.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis) For decades, journals relied mostly on the honour system. Many people think peer review requires validating the data. It does not. It's basically a cursory check that the claimed methods are valid. The data is usually not validated. In fact, the data is usually not even produced for the journal or peer reviewers at all. This has become such a large issue that research began to sample studies to see if they could replicate the results given the claimed methods. A shocking number of papers could not be replicated. Scientists are loathe to claim this proves fraud, but when one has carefully written 50 pages of dense research methodology to arrive at statistically significant findings, it's clear that they would know if their experiments were replicable.

There is also another major issue with academic research as it exists: findings are (almost) only ever published when they confirm the hypothesis. Researchers begin from an often very biased perspective about the way they believe the world works (sociology is one of the worst for this), and work backwards from their conclusion. They might conduct dozens or hundreds of experiments, all while fail and are never published. Then they land on an experiment which can be massaged to reflect the message, and that is published. The fact is that all those "failures" are equally insightful research, and it should all be published for a variety of reasons.

There are also major issues re how research is gated and funded, and how many hobby researchers are never given the opportunity to publish at all - even if they could afford to pay the journal bribe.

Long story short, this entire industry was on the verge of collapse prior to AI. I cannot imagine it could get any worse, and I'm hopefully that AI will enable us to easily screen fraudulent and non-replicable research in the future. I expect 98% of papers to be rejected.

Re: How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

#977
post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is even his “intricate analysis” was wrong: for example he was saying the models wouldn’t keep improving… in 2024.

Have they improved? Is there evidence of that? Got a task you were doing in 2024 and 2026 and the results of each?

There is plenty of evidence that they have improved in all benchmarks and also in my private experience. But have they improved in the things they still fail at? No, they still fail at them. You need only one example of failure to prove that it still fails. They still fail a lot on many real world tasks.

So, depending on what you ask, they may have not improved even a tiny bit.

Re: How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

#978

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of startups are not funded by OpenAI or Anthropic. They are not a significant source of venture capital. Meanwhile, OpenAI is pulling in $40B+ per year and Anthropic $65B+ per year. You are mixing up valuations with liquid cash and you're also making sweeping statements about how those startups are spending their cash. A majority of a raise is not spent on AI compute. Situational Awareness blew up b…

You’re applying pre-AI investing to a post-AI world. Yes, a decade ago, a startup raised money and spent 90% of it on people. The people built software which had incredible margins. Build it and then print money for ever more. That’s not the case any more, these startups no longer have incredible margins, they’re not collecting $100/m per user and banking $99 of it. They’re collecting $1000 and sending $999 of it to…

$800M a year is less than 1% of their quoted revenues at $100B+ / year. Claiming credits as revenue would be tax fraud. Credits to clients for services are counted as debits against

There are zero serious companies collecting $1000 on revenue and sending $999 as a cost of goods sold to Anthropic/AI. It would be unprofitable to even run a proxy to Anthropic on such thin margins. But I digress.

No company was banking $100 and keeping $99 in the "before times" either. These are fantasy numbers not even the most highly optimized software company produced. As an example, Slack famously went public in 2019 and it had revenue of $401M with a gross margin of ~79%, meaning they were pulling in $316M in gross profit. That is the figure before labor, administration, R&D, sales & marketing, etc. They actually operated on a net loss after factoring for those expenses, despite their high gross margin, which is common in high growth startups (Amazon famously ran losses or marginal profits until decades after their founding because they continuously reinvested in expansion).

Credits reduce revenue by all basic accounting standards. You can accuse these companies of fraud, it is within the realm of possibility, but it would also be You are making conflicting arguments at the same time. There exist startups that are able to generate gross profit with some consumption of AI services, they are also able to invest nearly 100% of their capital into AI to generate those profits without needing to spend on traditional labor, and yet AI is not sustainable. By your own circular logic it is of course sustainable, but by grounded logic, you have to understand any business that goes from zero 4 years ago to $100B+ in annual revenue today with double digit growth rates is offering the world something of value. Anyone who has tried AI sees some value in it. There is some revenue and profit to be made here. Betting against that in the long term will just lose you money and sanity.

Re: How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

#979

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like too many people have a binary vision of the world, i.e. you're either "pro AI" or "anti AI". Ed Zitron doesn't say that AI doesn't work, that its impact on the world will not increase. He's basically saying that (1) the current data center investments are based on unrealistic revenue projections and (2) hyperscalers are using accounting tricks to move around "money" in a circular way to make it look like…

If you ever listen to more than a couple of Zitron interviews, it's clear that he's not the "reasonable centrist" viewpoint on AI. He's the doom-and-gloom guy. Maybe there is someone out there positive on AI itself and calling out reasonable objections to some of the extreme things. But that's not Zitron.

As someone who's strongly anti-AI, i find Zitron to be absolutely too much pro-AI for my taste. He defends AI that's not LLMs. He barely touches on ecological impacts of AI, and barely mentions the enshittification of things. He's only really against the LLM craze, OpenAI/Anthropic over-evaluation (because Deepseek and local models will do the same for nearly free), and the crazy speculative bubble around datacenters.

If you find him very negative about AI, and i find him very positive about AI, he might just be this reasonable centrist.

Re: How accurate have Ed Zitron's AI skeptic predictions been?

#980
post #944

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like too many people have a binary vision of the world, i.e. you're either "pro AI" or "anti AI". Ed Zitron doesn't say that AI doesn't work, that its impact on the world will not increase. He's basically saying that (1) the current data center investments are based on unrealistic revenue projections and (2) hyperscalers are using accounting tricks to move around "money" in a circular way to make it look like…

> Ed Zitron doesn't say that AI doesn't work Ive seen him say it does work pretty consistently? He also talks about other things that are more interesting, but he still says it doesnt work

From anything i read/watched of him, the shorthand is "it doesn't work". When taking more than a few words to explain, it means it's not replacing humans altogether, because the output is low-quality and needs human quality control. In the end, he's not arguing LLMs are not working (as in returning 500 in your browser), but that the promise of autonomous agents replacing humans for increased productivity is a lie and doesn't work.

I overall agree with his interpretation, but i'm afraid he might be wrong in the conclusion that noone is going to replace human labor with shittier agent slop. As long as we humans don't really have regulations and choice for proper quality of service, companies might just in fact enshittify everything with slop and make more profits while we suffer from lower-quality products and support.

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