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Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

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Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ooh thanks for the hijack! It’s so much easier to talk to someone who isn’t stuck in a picture of the brain from the 1980s. Yes, I fall more towards the camp that a lot of our cognitive models, built from times when we didn’t have the resolution of understanding we have of the capacity of even a single neuron, and before we knew how astrocytes played a role, suffer from being an abstraction describing an abstraction.…

Thanks for your response, very intriguing! I have some controls background, and there’s something tantalizing about the idea that perhaps we need to be looking at the brain in frequency space, as it were. Are you aware of reservoir computing and do you see it playing a part in this?

Yes I’ve come across reservoir computing. As a neuroscientist, it made me sit up and take notice.

I’d say that I feel there’s homology in language. What reservoir computing says about the efficiency benefits of having a fixed but tunable dynamics to use as an underlying reservoir feels very adjacent to how I intuitively think of brain function.

The key thing from the circadian field you’ll appreciate:

The biological clock is a limit cycle oscillator. You have a bunch of chemical reactions that have negative feedback and some feedforward arms, and together they create a dynamical 24-regime. About 40-60% of the transcriptome of any given cell shows circadian dynamics.

Now this gives you phase, and an internal temporal reference for all your functions. In chronobiology, you call this the organisms subjective time. The system is chemically partitioned not just physically but over time, and behavior results from the dynamical interactions underneath which are concerned with anticipating solar and lunar periodicities in the environment, since those are so very common and determinative to fitness in many niches.

Note the fact that it is subjective time but has an objective description. However, external measurement without the background of the chronotype accounted for will thing of a lot of variance as “noise”.

My own philosophical conclusion has been that this is the source of our confusion with consciousness. We don’t account for the internal causal order of events, which are timed, and with cross frequency coupling and phase-amplitude linkages begging to be worked out with real world data.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously not, which is why I didn't say it did! But you sneak it into your assumptions on what a memory must be. > However, if you want to identify where long-term memories are stored And why do you assume there is a specific “where” for the memory? > then that is in the cortex There’s good deal of evidence disproving this in the way you’re stating this. The cortex is involved in sensing, and yes, the sensory info…

If someone's hippocampus is destroyed, they lose the ability to form new (episodic) memories, and may lose some more recent old ones, but they certainly do not lose older ones. This is basic knowledge. > and that this ensemble it’s dedicated to that memory, or similar memories No - that's the exact opposite of what I said. My whole point was that a cortical column is NOT dedicated to a single memory (we'd run out of…

> If someone's hippocampus is destroyed, they lose the ability to form new (episodic) memories, and may lose some more recent old ones, but they certainly do not lose older ones. This is basic knowledge.

Yes, like basic reading without digging into details. You must have heard about HM, since you’re saying all this. But here’s the facts:

When H.M.’s remote memories were probed carefully, they turned out to be gist-like and semanticized, not vivid re-experiencings of specific events. Here’s the paper:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15716139/

Only semantic memory of the episodes can be said to be “cortical” (though please note, lack of hippocampus doesn’t mean lack of other brain regions…). Rich recall absolutely does require the hippocampus.

Once again, please try not to “spherical cow” the complexity of the brain to try and fit it into your analogy to digital computing. You will get an underdermined model that will miss the subtleties, and lead you to claims that are poor fits for the reality.

As for why I brought up bird brains… there part of the same evolutionary web. Is there some reason you want them excluded? They’re a well studied model for a fairly complex memory task, using substantially smaller neurons more densely packed in a different architecture than mammals.

In cognitive science, as in computer science I’d imagine, it’s useful to look at the full picture before making strong claims.

The bird case is interesting because the region of interest is a nucleus, rather than cortical columns, and actually has well documented structural variations in size, as well as gene expression, over the seasons, while the memories are forming.

If your model is correct, it needs to account for those facts.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#113
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> None of that changes whether there is a physical capacity, which I think was the larger point? Capacity in what sense? Are we saying it’s X MB of data the brain can store? That claim is steeped in assumptions. On the other hand, no one is claiming the brain has infinite memory or anything. And it’s certainly not a very accurate memory system. I’m arguing against “capacity” being understood as “these specific physic…

https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.79.8.2554 in a very precise sense going back a long time. I don't really know who you're arguing against or refuting? You seem to be touching on some pretty well accepted ideas. "All I’m trying to say is that analogy to current typical memory storage systems to explain the brains memory processes is not helpful." Again, my impression is that the original author's idea was abo…

I’m not sure what you think I’m arguing against but saying that it matches with one of the cognitive models du jour is… odd.

The problem with the hopfield model is it simplifies the brain too much. The base unit is “the neuron”. Ok… but what about the Astrocyte? Mathematically you can write it as a different kind of neuron. Or ignore it. But why, as a biologist, must I buy this model which ignores the third partner of every synapse, which has an entirely distinct physical tiling architecture compared to neurons, and which are at a temporal offset from neurons?

Those facts about the brain are missing from the model from 1982. Which isn’t shocking since we didn’t know all this then.

Are you saying the brain is a Hopfield network, and that’s it? Because later you indicate otherwise. Kinda confused what I’m to make of it.

> Again, my impression is that the original author's idea was about capacity in general, then he gave an analogy. The analogy was wrong, but your reply went way beyond his specific analogy to the extreme of discarding memory itself as useful concept. To be clear, I agree that it is distributed and lossy and time-dependent. I agree it is not just a simple read-off of a static chunk with a fixed address.

Ok, but my argument wasn’t with the OP mentioning capacity, but with their analogy. Am I not allowed to break down that analogy with evidence?

> I would say that is both non-falsifiable and well-accepted.

Why’s it non-falsifiable? If you do find a single computational paradigm that explains all brain dynamics we can measure, then you have falsified the hypothesis that it’s an integration of multiple computational types.

That actual evidence already gives the notion credence doesn’t make it unfalsifiable in principle.

> https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262041997/theoretical-neuroscie... might interest you

Went through the description. Doubt it’ll interest me. As a rule I’ve stopped giving too much time to models that predate the last decades actual mechanistic facts. They’re fun curiosities, but hard to take seriously anymore. Here especially, the absence of astrocytes in the picture makes it hard to buy they have anything real to say about the mechanics at play. Half the cells of the brain not in the explanatory picture is just too likely to fail.

(note: I’m certain astrocytes are mentioned as support cells, or maybe regulators… but we just know a lot more now due to new techniques that makes downgrading them like that questionable science to me)

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#114
Is it aging or the extra amount of information on the brain? If a young man is in a coma and wakes up as an old man will he experience the blend memories or will he remember things just as they were when he remembered them as a young man?

There's also the issue of the more we remember something the more we change it. Which could contribute to the blended memories.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#115
post #114

Is it aging or the extra amount of information on the brain? If a young man is in a coma and wakes up as an old man will he experience the blend memories or will he remember things just as they were when he remembered them as a young man? There's also the issue of the more we remember something the more we change it. Which could contribute to the blended memories.

i had the same thought about to much information in the brain. this is why you don't use /compact and should prefer a fresh session.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#116
post #62

The concept of memories blending together resonates after watching a recent Kurzgezadt video entitled "How Are Memories Stored Inside Your Brain?". It makes the point that the very act of recalling a memory changes it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqtggjVAi8M > But memories are not static like photos. Like dioramas made from wax, each time they’re under the spotlight of your attention they can melt and change a ti…

I suspect my oldest memory, of me getting into a booster car seat as a child, is no longer the actual memory, but the accumulated imaginings of me trying to remember that specific memory, masquerading as a memory.

Comet Hale-Bopp is definitely a case of this for me. Although I remember a few interesting things about the process of seeing it, I have no idea of what it looked like to me.

I can remember the neighbors standing slightly in our yard and then explaining to my parents the comet and pointing it out to us. I can remember at some points that followed being aware of the parallax effect as it seemed to appear on either side of my other neighbors’ house as I walked up and down the driveway.

But just a year or so later, I knew that the picture in my memory was more like an illustration of a comet. The accurate image was completely gone even though the memories surrounding it remained, and in the place of that image was something that I had imagined.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This of course applies to my (sarcastic) description of women's memory too. A given conversation is compressed to a small amount of memory, a significant part of which is the "feel" of the conversation rather than the actual words. So of course the memory is not word-for-word exact. But, let's just say, a subset of persons, a majority of which may or may not be female, does not acknowledge this and insists that the (…

I went under for 2 different surgeries. One of them I had post surgery complications. Years later, we needed to know the year I had the complications. I remembered the surgery, simply look it up and ta-da I got the date. Except, my wife thought it was the other surgery. And insisted. I was incredulous and angry. I literally nearly died during the complications. I think I would remember the surgery it was from. And it…

At the risk of sounding rude, ignorant, and insensitive... did you all get married young? That all sounds a bit narcissistic.

Life is too short to be miserable, and we don't celebrate divorce enough. I'm happy for you both, and hope you are too. It's just as much of a milestone as any other big life event.

I've never been married, but I have noticed some couples get sort of locked into the level of emotional maturity they were at when they got married. I've always assumed it was a lack of new experiences stunting personal growth.

Obviously, similar could be said about me since I've never been married. That too is a lack of experience. Though it is worth pointing out that it's stories like this and my own past relationships that have scared me away. Being emotionally stable and reasonably humble is underrated.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#119

I wonder how much of this is directly related to age (biological aging), and how much is just someone's brain becoming "full" due to more memories getting added every year? It seems that memories must be stored as embeddings with single multi-neuron assemblies (cortical columns?) storing multiple embeddings as a kind of contents-addressable memory that is able to keep memories distinct due to the very high dimensiona…

The brain does not have the Von Neumann bottleneck. Unlike most current digital systems, the brain doesn’t have a separate memory registry it needs to pull from. Engrams, that is, the physical trace of a memory, are not stable through life. They start out in the hippocampus, but as the stimulus recedes in time without reinforcement, it moves away. No evidence exists though that the memory is encoded in one set of cel…

I wonder the effect of diary writing on the brain, I see always recommended as either part of the self-improvement space or meditation. But reading your comment, I wonder if it allows to strengthen memories, especially if ones reread it after a while. I must experiment, now it's easier than ever with LLMs

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#120

Being an "aging brain" myself I can totally relate to this. I've been a relatively obsessive photographer (i.e. visual diary) since digital cameras were practical, i.e. over 25 years now. 238K photos in the collection so far, and I can actually find things in it. And I've more than once found that an anecdote I've been telling has been incorrect, precisely in a "melded memories" kind of way. It happened at this sort…

Wait, so you're taking ~26 pictures every single day for the last 25 years?
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