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Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

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Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#52
post #49

I wonder how much of this is directly related to age (biological aging), and how much is just someone's brain becoming "full" due to more memories getting added every year? It seems that memories must be stored as embeddings with single multi-neuron assemblies (cortical columns?) storing multiple embeddings as a kind of contents-addressable memory that is able to keep memories distinct due to the very high dimensiona…

A fascinating story of "Patient Sh." [1], the man who did not forget. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Shereshevsky "His memory was so powerful that he could still recall decades-old events and experiences in the smallest details. After he discovered his own abilities, he performed as a mnemonist; but this created confusion in his mind. He went as far as writing things down on paper and burning it, so that h…

The book Moonwalking with Einstein covers Patient S and memory in general. It's an enjoyable and quick read on the topic, would definitely recommend.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The brain does not have the Von Neumann bottleneck. Unlike most current digital systems, the brain doesn’t have a separate memory registry it needs to pull from. Engrams, that is, the physical trace of a memory, are not stable through life. They start out in the hippocampus, but as the stimulus recedes in time without reinforcement, it moves away. No evidence exists though that the memory is encoded in one set of cel…

> The brain does not have the Von Neumann bottleneck Obviously not, which is why I didn't say it did! However, if you want to identify where long-term memories are stored, then that is in the cortex, but it should go without saying that this doesn't make the cortex the storage component of a von-Neumann architecture! > No evidence exists though that the memory is encoded in one set of cells I'm not sure what you are…

> Obviously not, which is why I didn't say it did!

But you sneak it into your assumptions on what a memory must be.

> However, if you want to identify where long-term memories are stored

And why do you assume there is a specific “where” for the memory?

> then that is in the cortex

There’s good deal of evidence disproving this in the way you’re stating this. The cortex is involved in sensing, and yes, the sensory information associated with a memory will recruit appropriate cortical cells. This doesn’t mean the memory resides in the cortex. And detailed episodic recall keeps recruiting the hippocampus even for old memories, which is odd if the memory were somehow only in the cortex.

> I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Let me restate what I’m saying then:

There are four claims bundled together in the way you were describing biological memory: that a specific ensemble is activated when a given memory forms; that it’s the same ensemble that gets activated over time when that memory is retrieved; that it’s spatially compact, like a column in region of the brain; and that this ensemble it’s dedicated to that memory, or similar memories .

The first is well supported. An engram, a network of neurons, is indeed activated when a memory first forms, and gets stabilized due to repeated stimulus. Re-activating these neurons in a different context can make the subject (a mouse) behave as it would if it had contextual signals to evoke said memory.

However: 1. This engram is not in one particular part of the brain. There’s a cortical part that overlaps the sensory regions that were involved. But plenty of other regions are part of the engram 2. There’s turnover, over the course of weeks, when the specific cells involved in the engram drift, while the behavior remains stable. 3. The same synapses participate in many memories.

> Memories are presumably stored as embeddings

No. Let’s consider songbirds, which are an excellent worked out example (in an animal without the complex columnar cortical architecture mammals show, by the way).

What’s learned is a temporal sequence, with neurons in a nucleus in their brains each firing one brief burst at a fixed point in the motif, so the content of the memory is its dynamics rather than any value. The circuit that evaluates the match against the tutor template is the same circuit generating the output being evaluated. Song degrades overnight during sleep replay and recovers the next day, and in seasonal species the song nuclei change size across the year with neurons added and lost while the song persists. There’s no read that leaves the item untouched, no persistent address, and no substrate holding still. “Stored as” imports all three.

And it goes below the neuron or synapse. Hearing a tutor song drives immediate early gene expression that habituates with familiarity, and singing drives large transcriptional changes in the song nuclei that differ by social context for the same motor output. Since transcription runs on minutes to hours and the proteins turn over, any persistent state has to be actively regenerated rather than deposited.

TLDR: the memory isn’t a static store. There’s no persistent “location” for it, distributed or otherwise, though specific locations can be in the chain that’s activated for retrieval/production. Instead, memory, over time, is driven by a dynamical regime that adjusts its dynamics to account for the temporal pattern in the salient stimulus.

Nothing, down to the epigenetic changes in the chromatin of these neurons, can be seen as “the” location of “a” memory, especially over time.

> if you are saying that individual memories/chunks are not confined to one set of cells (some localized neural assembly such as a cortical column).

That is indeed the case.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#54
post #14

My dreams imprint stronger than reality. This has the unfortunate effect of sometimes recalling memories as real, when in fact it was all a dream.

Happened to me, induced chemically when I experimented with lucid dreaming. It was to scary so I stopped it.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#55
post #49

I wonder how much of this is directly related to age (biological aging), and how much is just someone's brain becoming "full" due to more memories getting added every year? It seems that memories must be stored as embeddings with single multi-neuron assemblies (cortical columns?) storing multiple embeddings as a kind of contents-addressable memory that is able to keep memories distinct due to the very high dimensiona…

A fascinating story of "Patient Sh." [1], the man who did not forget. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Shereshevsky "His memory was so powerful that he could still recall decades-old events and experiences in the smallest details. After he discovered his own abilities, he performed as a mnemonist; but this created confusion in his mind. He went as far as writing things down on paper and burning it, so that h…

I suspect the anxiety of being unable to forget things has an inherent selection bias. You will only stress over the things you can't forget, the things you have forgotten you won't stress over...

Generally claims of eidetic memories are overstated, doubly for older claims, but Nigel Richards memorized a French dictionary in 9 weeks, over 6k words a day, x2 including the alphagram.

I consider myself to have a decent memory, but that is 200x what I'd think myself capable of, assuming I want to retain it all at the end of the 9 weeks.

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#57

Being an "aging brain" myself I can totally relate to this. I've been a relatively obsessive photographer (i.e. visual diary) since digital cameras were practical, i.e. over 25 years now. 238K photos in the collection so far, and I can actually find things in it. And I've more than once found that an anecdote I've been telling has been incorrect, precisely in a "melded memories" kind of way. It happened at this sort…

[deleted]

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#58

Being an "aging brain" myself I can totally relate to this. I've been a relatively obsessive photographer (i.e. visual diary) since digital cameras were practical, i.e. over 25 years now. 238K photos in the collection so far, and I can actually find things in it. And I've more than once found that an anecdote I've been telling has been incorrect, precisely in a "melded memories" kind of way. It happened at this sort…

Just throwing out an idea: I recently stumbled upon an old-school website where someone is uploading a photo of their day (almost) every single day since 1998.

Came across screen captures of the original Everquest (SO COOL) and other games, photos of anime/cosplay events, city shots, family, friends, etc. Really fun for them, and fun for people who like me who still enjoy surfing the web.

edit: Screencap of an Everquest screencap for funsies: https://imgur.com/a/HUqc6p5

Re: Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them

#60
post #58

Being an "aging brain" myself I can totally relate to this. I've been a relatively obsessive photographer (i.e. visual diary) since digital cameras were practical, i.e. over 25 years now. 238K photos in the collection so far, and I can actually find things in it. And I've more than once found that an anecdote I've been telling has been incorrect, precisely in a "melded memories" kind of way. It happened at this sort…

Just throwing out an idea: I recently stumbled upon an old-school website where someone is uploading a photo of their day (almost) every single day since 1998. Came across screen captures of the original Everquest (SO COOL) and other games, photos of anime/cosplay events, city shots, family, friends, etc. Really fun for them, and fun for people who like me who still enjoy surfing the web. edit: Screencap of an Everqu…

When my mom was still alive and relatively new to a smartphone (at age 80) I decided to send her some sort of relevant picture every day via Whatsapp, to get her used to communicating that way. Sometimes it was a real stretch to come up with something. But yes, this forces you to evaluate your life from that viewpoint "surely something was interesting today? Let's keep a picture of it". Even if it's just what I'm having for lunch that day.

But she's gone now and so is that habit.

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