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FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

krebsonsecurity.com

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Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#121

Post by embedding-shape »

iamnothere wrote: post #116
embedding-shape wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but that an individual cannot participate in society or survive if the government decides to revoke the id What would happen today if your government revokes a SSN which is your de facto "personal identification number" today? Can you still rent/buy a home? Can you have a job?

Some US citizens don’t even have SSNs, believe it or not. The Amish get by just fine.

Is it generally considered that The Amish "participates in society"? I thought the whole point for them was that they're "outside of modern society", to some degree at least.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#122

Post by embedding-shape »

iamnothere wrote: post #115
nobodyandproud wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in that tradition, so I can shed some light: The fear of a national ID isn’t just about tracking and privacy, but that an individual cannot participate in society or survive if the government decides to revoke the id. Meaning, I can’t buy food; rent or buy a home; or hold any sort of job and earn and save. What we have today isn’t better, but until recently I was hard pressed to see how such fears were even…

Exactly. You do not want to hand the US government the ability to “turn off” someone’s daily life at the press of a button. Things are already bad enough as it is, but at least it’s still possible to get by even if the system takes a dislike to you.

> Exactly. You do not want to hand the US government the ability to “turn off” someone’s daily life at the press of a button.

If you're within the borders of the US, this ability already exists, they have a monopoly on violence in the country, something the government is very eager to demonstrate this year.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#123

Post by ethagnawl »

I know some modern, normal countries have done variations of this but the US missed a golden opportunity to give everyone an RSA keypair when they were coerced into signing up for an Enhanced/REAL ID.

Instead of scanning, taking photos of or holding licences up to webcams (I was asked to do this recently) you provide your public key or, better, a signed message containing the name, website or other identifier which gets cross-referenced by the legit provider against the id.gov database.

Of course the devil is in the details and I wouldn't trust GrandePelotas and friends to vibe code such a system but it is absolutely possible and is something we should, at the very least, be thinking about.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#124

Post by nobodyandproud »

embedding-shape wrote: post #112
nobodyandproud wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in that tradition, so I can shed some light: The fear of a national ID isn’t just about tracking and privacy, but that an individual cannot participate in society or survive if the government decides to revoke the id. Meaning, I can’t buy food; rent or buy a home; or hold any sort of job and earn and save. What we have today isn’t better, but until recently I was hard pressed to see how such fears were even…

> but that an individual cannot participate in society or survive if the government decides to revoke the id What would happen today if your government revokes a SSN which is your de facto "personal identification number" today? Can you still rent/buy a home? Can you have a job?

Before my time, but I believe SSN was and probably still is controversial in my circle. I definitely recall rumblings about it even 30 years ago.

But while cash is printed (physical currency): Not having an SSN becomes a major impediment but not impossible to make transactions and survive.

Our migrant workers—who are basically carrying white collar workers like me—are proof of this.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#125

Post by embedding-shape »

nobodyandproud wrote: post #124
embedding-shape wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but that an individual cannot participate in society or survive if the government decides to revoke the id What would happen today if your government revokes a SSN which is your de facto "personal identification number" today? Can you still rent/buy a home? Can you have a job?

Before my time, but I believe SSN was and probably still is controversial in my circle. I definitely recall rumblings about it even 30 years ago. But while cash is printed (physical currency): Not having an SSN becomes a major impediment but not impossible to make transactions and survive. Our migrant workers—who are basically carrying white collar workers like me—are proof of this.

Isn't all of those cases then also proof that if the SSN was a government ID instead, all of those things would have been the same? The ID wouldn't "impossible to make transactions and survive", just an impediment, just like not having a SSN is today.

Point is, the US already basically have a de facto "ID card", they just don't call it as such (yet?), so claiming somehow correctly labeling this thing would make things worse or more difficult, doesn't make much sense.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#126

Post by lotsofpulp »

logifail wrote: post #118
lotsofpulp wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A national ID card scheme has existed for many decades. It’s called a passport. There is no reason a digital equivalent can’t be made using the passport system, and it can be left optional, just like passports are optional.

> just like passports are optional "Border controls aren’t supposed to exist between EU member states – that’s the promise of the 1985 Schengen treaty. Yet today, travelers routinely face checks when crossing borders within the [European] union" https://euobserver.com/198454/law-professor-sues-germany-for...

What relevance does that have to the US federal government offering a digital ID verification system on top of existing passport infrastructure?

EU did border checks without digital IDs being a thing, so why couldn’t US states do a border check without digital IDs?

Digital IDs are not a causal factor for these concerns, seeing as how those government abuses already happen without digital IDs.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#127

Post by iamnothere »

embedding-shape wrote: post #122
iamnothere wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. You do not want to hand the US government the ability to “turn off” someone’s daily life at the press of a button. Things are already bad enough as it is, but at least it’s still possible to get by even if the system takes a dislike to you.

> Exactly. You do not want to hand the US government the ability to “turn off” someone’s daily life at the press of a button. If you're within the borders of the US, this ability already exists, they have a monopoly on violence in the country, something the government is very eager to demonstrate this year.

There’s a lot of room between violence and financial isolation. The government has shown multiple times that it is willing to go after otherwise law-abiding citizens who take up disfavored careers, whether it’s gun dealers and payday lenders in Operation Choke Point, cannabis dispensaries in states where it was legal, or online cam girls. In all of these cases, going to cash or using alternatives to the banking system was possible and even necessary for them to survive.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#128

Post by oogali »

3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #9
fishfasell wrote: post #2

So an online identity verification service had millions of IDs exfiltrated, many of which were linked to marijuana dispensaries? Oh man, my ID is definitely out there, shit.

153 million puts them at roughly 1/2 of all Americans. Naturally these "identity verification" companies are a joke that have no security and gladly piss our PII into the wind without taking the job seriously.

Total population (341M) is the wrong divisor. It’s so much worse.

Count the number of Americans who would have an ID worth scanning (aka ages 18 or over): 269M [1].

Or the number of Americans with a driver’s license: 212M (2013) [2].

1: https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/popest/tables/2020-...

2: https://www.bts.gov/content/licensed-drivers

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#129

Post by iamnothere »

embedding-shape wrote: post #121
iamnothere wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some US citizens don’t even have SSNs, believe it or not. The Amish get by just fine.

Is it generally considered that The Amish "participates in society"? I thought the whole point for them was that they're "outside of modern society", to some degree at least.

They participate in their own society, which allows them to survive in their own way. In other countries, national IDs have often been followed by mandatory registration requirements for renting or owning property, employment, etc. At present there are ways to get around using ID for many things, and it should stay that way.

Re: FBI Probes Service Selling 153M+ Drivers Licenses

#130

Post by alistairSH »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #108
alistairSH wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is insane. The federal government already knows who we are, via SSN, tax returns, and whatever else. The state already knows via tax returns, driver's license, and whatever else. If we, collectively, don't want a true national ID, then federal regulations on state-issued IDs should be available (something roughly akin to ReadID, but with the ability to use the ID as a proof of age or other attribute as needed).…

>Which is insane. The federal government already knows who we are, via SSN, tax returns, and whatever else. The state already knows via tax returns, driver's license, and whatever else. "They can already send a drone to watch you and track your cell location and, and, and, why does it matter if they also slap up a million AI powered cameras?" The comprehensiveness of the system matters.

Not sure how you jump from "ID with chip" to "AI-based drone and camera network". We can do one without the other.
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