Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 255 posts

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#241

Post by odyssey7 »

Fun fact:

The 2006 IAU definition was explicitly scoped in a limited way so that it does not apply to anything beyond the Solar System.

Planets outside the Solar System are not held to the same level of scrutiny. Over 6000 planets have been discovered outside the solar system, and none of them are required to clear their neighborhoods to be designated as planets. The IAU’s Official Working Definition of an Exoplanet can be read at: https://www.iau.org/CommissionF2/CommissionF2/Documents.aspx

So, if someone really thinks we ought to have a universal definition for what a planet is, then they might start by having a word with the IAU.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#242

Post by Timon3 »

odyssey7 wrote: post #241

Fun fact: The 2006 IAU definition was explicitly scoped in a limited way so that it does not apply to anything beyond the Solar System. Planets outside the Solar System are not held to the same level of scrutiny. Over 6000 planets have been discovered outside the solar system, and none of them are required to clear their neighborhoods to be designated as planets. The IAU’s Official Working Definition of an Exoplanet…

Do you have examples where data definitely shows an exoplanet that hasn't cleared the orbit?

Since the accurate detection of small non-glowing objects becomes exponentially more difficult as you look further out, that seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation - far more reasonable than the evil cabal of astronomers conspiring to defeat Pluto's defendants with organized harassment campaigns...

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#243

Post by odyssey7 »

Timon3 wrote: post #242
odyssey7 wrote: post #241

Fun fact: The 2006 IAU definition was explicitly scoped in a limited way so that it does not apply to anything beyond the Solar System. Planets outside the Solar System are not held to the same level of scrutiny. Over 6000 planets have been discovered outside the solar system, and none of them are required to clear their neighborhoods to be designated as planets. The IAU’s Official Working Definition of an Exoplanet…

Do you have examples where data definitely shows an exoplanet that hasn't cleared the orbit? Since the accurate detection of small non-glowing objects becomes exponentially more difficult as you look further out, that seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation - far more reasonable than the evil cabal of astronomers conspiring to defeat Pluto's defendants with organized harassment campaigns...

I have not pointed any fingers at the IAU for harassing people. But do be mindful of placing words into the mouths of others.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#244

Post by Timon3 »

odyssey7 wrote: post #243
Timon3 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have examples where data definitely shows an exoplanet that hasn't cleared the orbit? Since the accurate detection of small non-glowing objects becomes exponentially more difficult as you look further out, that seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation - far more reasonable than the evil cabal of astronomers conspiring to defeat Pluto's defendants with organized harassment campaigns...

I have not pointed any fingers at the IAU for harassing people. But do be mindful of placing words into the mouths of others.

> Perhaps the IAU didn’t attempt to exert any influence over the general public and perhaps they have had nothing to do with the legions who have since been irritatingly telling people that their words are scientifically incorrect, as if the IAU is an infallible god of science and that everyone must heed the IAU at all times regardless of whether they are practicing science at the particular moment.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49528442

You see where you are calling into question whether the IAU have something to do with the "legions" who you've been in other comments saying are harassing you?

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#245

Post by odyssey7 »

Timon3 wrote: post #244
odyssey7 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not pointed any fingers at the IAU for harassing people. But do be mindful of placing words into the mouths of others.

> Perhaps the IAU didn’t attempt to exert any influence over the general public and perhaps they have had nothing to do with the legions who have since been irritatingly telling people that their words are scientifically incorrect, as if the IAU is an infallible god of science and that everyone must heed the IAU at all times regardless of whether they are practicing science at the particular moment. https://news.ycom…

To the contrary, I was expressing that the irritators perpetually on standby might have nothing at all to do with the IAU.

Are you a member of the IAU?

The rest of that post clarifies that this is a problem caused by certain “armchair scientists.” Members of the IAU are in fact actual scientists, not armchair ones.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#246

Post by odyssey7 »

Timon3 wrote: post #233
odyssey7 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the IAU didn’t attempt to exert any influence over the general public and perhaps they have had nothing to do with the legions who have since been irritatingly telling people that their words are scientifically incorrect, as if the IAU is an infallible god of science and that everyone must heed the IAU at all times regardless of whether they are practicing science at the particular moment. We don’t have a pro…

Yes, perhaps people follow their own thoughts and opinions, so perhaps they understand and accept the IAU's explanation. Just like people less than 100 years ago perhaps accepted the explanation why scientists are suddenly adding a new ninth planet! But I have a feeling that the problem you see is just a fairly normal social mechanism: if you use words differently from the majority of people, you will keep getting co…

I do accept the IAU’s explanation. It’s their definition, it’s none of my business, and I’m not accountable for using it myself.

Even if the person correcting you isn’t acting like an overexcited 13-year-old jumping up to correct someone about it, you must agree that as a point of discussion — as a matter of good taste and manners — telling someone that Pluto isn’t a planet is just terribly boring by now, and if that is stated as a response to something the person was trying to say, there’s a risk that attention and energy is being diluted from the actual point? Of course it happens earnestly, but there are still all of the other times and ways that it happens.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#247

Post by belviewreview »

I think the people who pushed to remove Pluto's status made a mistake by focusing on new discoveries. They should have told the whole story forward, starting with the thousands of years before the telescope was invented, then the gradual evolution of understanding after it was until we arrived at the idea of 9 planets plus asteroids and comets, and then the further series of discoveries since then including the Ort cloud and the Kuiper belt, and also include Newtonian physics and how the solar system was seen as stabile, but now chaotic.

Then after you tell this whole larger story the whole idea of Pluto being something other than a planet makes a lot more sense to people since it was originally based on the idea the solar system has a lot fewer types of features than we know it has.

But the Pluto planet demoters didn't do this. The started with the present decision and just referred back to the history in bits and pieces, and out of order.

And worse than not arguing for their position as effectively as they could, they missed an opportunity to get the public interested in the whole story and how it is continuing to evolve today in various ways.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#248

Post by odyssey7 »

Timon3 wrote: post #240
odyssey7 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m the person who has been explaining that the meaning of words comes from how they are used, not from how committees define them. The committees might influence people but ultimately words’ meanings come from how they are used. If you require a scientific expression of this concept, you might find distributional semantics of interest[1]. When people change how they use a word, its meaning changes. Far from having a…

Again, when you receive multiple comments disagreeing with yours and feel harassed, the likely reason is not a conspiracy to harass you until you change your mind. Of course everyone should be respectful, but as long as they're not deliberately piling on and just respond to your comment at a similar time, you have to respect their right to express disagreement just like you want the right to express yours.

Be mindful of placing words into the mouths of others.

A desire that certain people refrain from harassment is not a claim that a conspiracy exists.

A lack of originality and self-awareness is not in itself a sign that someone is conspiring with other people who lack originality and self-awareness.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#249

Post by BeetleB »

odyssey7 wrote: post #228
BeetleB wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically and culturally, Pluto is considered a planet. A very brief period of history. Give it 50 years and the number of people who will call it a planet will be close to 0. Let's not overstate Pluto's significance in culture. People call it a planet only because that's what they were taught in school. Not because of other (very few) cultural references. As it has been dropped from the curriculum, so shall it…

The meaning of a word comes from how its speakers use it. When people stop referring to Pluto as a planet, it will cease to be one. Until then, we are living in a reality in which Pluto both is a planet and is not a planet, depending on the context.

> When people stop referring to Pluto as a planet, it will cease to be one.

I'm not disagreeing. What I'm saying is that compared to most other planets, people are going to stop referring to Pluto as a planet, by the mere fact that they'll stop teaching it in school. It has no cultural momentum unlike Mars, Venus, etc.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#250

Post by kazinator »

petcat wrote: post #12
Oarch wrote: post #11

Back in school I learned the acronym: My Very Easy Method Just Speeds Up Naming Planets And it was so convenient! Does anyone know a good alternate now that the P is gone?

> Does anyone know a good alternate now that the P is gone? My Very Easy Method Just Speeds Up Naming

And fitting; since by means of a vote we messed up the definition of planet, we omit from the acronym the claim that we are naming planets.
Post reply on HN