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AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

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Re: AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

#261

Post by JohnTHaller »

devsda wrote: post #40
brainwad wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can install from other stores (AnkiDroid is on F-Droid, for example), or from direct file download on Android already. The problem is rather thay most users just use the store preinstalled on their phone as part of Google's deal with OEMs to bundle Google Play Services. So either you follow Google's rules, or you lose all the users who don't want to leave the walled garden, even though they can.

When do we stop this instinctive response of "well you can still do it in an only slightly convoluted way" everytime a corporate does something bad. Windows added ads - well you can disable them, if you don't like it. Chrome brought up mv3 - well you can still use mv2, it is only optional. Reddit locking subreddits behind login wall - well there's always old.reddit Android moving everything to playstore - there's alw…

macOS slowly ramping up the friction to run unsigned/unapproved apps over the years

Re: AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

#262

Post by dataflow »

rangerelf wrote: post #228
dataflow wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On what planet do you think anyone other than the most dedicated of dedicated people would choose the shop that requires waiting a whole day to use it when the alternative has no such restriction ? I have no clue what you're referring to or worried about here, could you clarify? Are you worried Android is going to lose power users to iPhone? What are the alternative shops you're referring to here? We're not buying…

> Are you worried Android is going to lose power users to iPhone? What are the alternative shops you're referring to here? We're not buying pastries. Are you 13 years old? Who in their right mind would even care that "all the power users" went and bought iPhones? Are thoughts like this keeping you up at night? > I don't know if people's imaginations are lacking here, but there could easily be a world in which your 'a…

> So you DO know what's going on! In that case I have no idea why you're arguing in favor of having a gate placed in front of our [personal, owned] phones to regulate what we do with our own devices.

Then you're not understanding anything I'm writing, and I don't have the energy to keep going.

All I'm saying is that you need to pick your battles carefully and be honest about your goals if you want to have a fighting chance of winning this war against general-purpose computing. I want to win this just as much as you. I don't want to lose it, and I certainly don't want to lose it in a dumb way. Dying on the wrong hill during the wrong battle because people on my side constantly lie, exaggerate, and otherwise misrepresent reality and turn away would-be supporters is probably the dumbest way to see this happen, and it should make you angry, if you actually want some success in what you're doing.

I will leave you with https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3818307.

Re: AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

#263

Post by dataflow »

lokar wrote: post #112
dataflow wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aren't donations untaxed? I don't know every jurisdiction, but that's not the only relevant factor. If they are tax-deductible, they still introduce the need for paperwork etc. for the payment processor to let the payer deduct it from their own income. A 0% tax on some action doesn't imply you don't have to worry about tax law when performing said action. Though I think you can just read the policy and take it at f…

That’s not true. If a donation is tax deductible that’s just between the IRS, the recipient and the donor. The payment processor, banks, etc don’t do anything special.

So I'm only a layperson and don't know what is strictly legally required, but my understanding (based on reading/third-hand information) is that payment processors do in practice end up with more work to do for this, whatever the reason. Quoting from [1]:

> Nonprofits have strict tax regulations when accepting donations. The more a payment processing system can assist with these regulations, the better for you and your donors. For instance, donors need to receive specific documentation for tax-deductible contributions, such as donation receipts. Additionally, different types of donations may involve different tax considerations for the donor and the organization. Nonprofits also have to consider any state and federal regulations regarding their charitable solicitation and fundraising activities, which may vary depending on location and activities.

And there's of course also exemption from sales tax which they have to handle too.

[1] https://www.subsplash.com/blog/nonprofit-payment-processing#...

Re: AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

#264

Post by dataflow »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #89
dataflow wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mere fact that they have to avoid dealing with sales tax here (unlike their typical transactions) is clearly extra complication for them. So you can understand that sales tax being 0% (thus "not taxable") can make things harder, not easier. Having to deal with bookkeeping or paperwork for tax deductions could also make things harder. In any case, whether you think these are easier or harder, and regardless of whi…

If you can't use their systems for a donation with a sales tax rate of 0%, then per the policy that means you can route users to alternative payment methods for those transactions. So by your reasoning, if donations to OSC are not subject to sales tax, then what the app is doing should be okay. (As an aside, I have no idea if donations to OSC are subject to sales tax, but I would be surprised if they were given there…

> If you can't use their systems for a donation with a sales tax rate of 0%, then per the policy that means you can route users to alternative payment methods for those transactions. So by your reasoning, if donations to OSC are not subject to sales tax, then what the app is doing should be okay.

I'm not seeing "if not {this}... then {that}" implication anywhere that you're citing. i.e. I do not see anything that implies at least one of the billing systems must be permitted for any given app. All I'm seeing are some sets of conditions under which you can use Google's payment system, and other sets of conditions under which you can use an alternative billing system. Sometimes they overlap and sometimes neither applies.

What's clear to me is:

- Page [1] says that you can't use their billing systems for "tax-exempt donations" (however that is supposed to be interpreted).

- Google's last correspondence says "For more information about alternative billing and external linking options available in some countries and regions, see the FAQ", and does not claim that such options are (or aren't) available to them. Page [2] says that this varies by country, and it's not clear to me what countries apply to them, but they seem to be in Japan. I am unclear on what they have/haven't done here, but it sounds like they have not followed all the requirements in [3] (or whatever the relevant requirements are), as [1] says: "Developers serving users in eligible countries/regions may offer users an alternative billing system within the app if they enroll in the applicable program and agree to the additional terms and program requirements."

I'm not sure if you have more information beyond this, but that's all I'm taking away so far. Perhaps I'm missing something?

And obligatory disclaimer (because this is HN): none of this is to suggest I like these circumstances; I'm just discussing the facts as I see them written.

[1] https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...

[2] https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/topi...

[3] https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...

Re: AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

#265

Post by skeledrew »

megagpt2 wrote: post #172
skeledrew wrote: post #39

Apps need to exit the Play Store. I have a whole slew of apps which haven't been updated for a while now because Aurora Store isn't working because of whatever Google of doing. Meanwhile the ones installed via FDroid and other means are perfectly up to date. It's a crappy state of affairs as Google continues to close the boiling Android frog.

Apps can only exit the store after users do.

But users won't exit while they can find apps they want there. It's the apps doing the primary pulling.

Re: AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

#266

Post by dataflow »

boesboes wrote: post #115
dataflow wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mere fact that they have to avoid dealing with sales tax here (unlike their typical transactions) is clearly extra complication for them. So you can understand that sales tax being 0% (thus "not taxable") can make things harder, not easier. Having to deal with bookkeeping or paperwork for tax deductions could also make things harder. In any case, whether you think these are easier or harder, and regardless of whi…

And they were not right? The issue here is that Google doesn't define tax-exempt properly, but does tell you to not use play. And then throws a fitty when you do that and they decided it's not the right kind of tax exempt? At least,that is how i read it. And then the way google deals with these cases is the real problem: no communication, no recourse, just spam HN and pray. And I am 99.99% certain they don't want suc…

I'm pretty sure they could support this if they wanted to, which implies they don't want such transactions. And they obviously aren't going to make it easy to get around something they don't want. So we agree on that. It sucks. I'm not debating any of that. I think our only disagreement is on whether the policy is clear, and AFAICT it is, as terrible as it might be.

Re: AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

#267

Post by xatax »

1718627440 wrote: post #161
xatax wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a workaround if you want it enough. I noticed that reddit was setting a use_redesign (I might have the name slightly wrong) cookie when I explicitly visited the old.reddit domain, and this caused old reddit to persist. Since I do occasionally want to use the new site for image posts and the like, I set up a bookmarklet to set/unset that cookie on command. I've since found that setting this cookie bypasses the…

To what value do I need to set the cookie?

I just checked and the cookie is actually redesign_optout. The value doesn't seem to matter - I just checked with value xyz and it worked.

Here's the bookmarklet I use:

javascript:(function(){const old_or_new = prompt("[O]ld or [N]ew?", "New");if (old_or_new.charAt(0).toUpperCase() == 'N') {document.cookie = 'redesign_optout=; Path=/; Domain=.reddit.com; Expires=Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:01 GMT;';} else {document.cookie = 'redesign_optout=true; Path=/; Domain=.reddit.com';}window.location.reload()})();

Re: AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

#268

Post by KPGv2 »

ajross wrote: post #156
KPGv2 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The bottom line is that Anki's lawyers messed up. Anki and Ankidroid are not the same entity and they have different owners, if you want to call it that. Anki is owned by Nicholas Flint, a physician who sells med school-related decks online under the name AnKing, which controls Ankihub, which now controls Anki after the original founder (Damien Elmes) gave them control about six months ago. Ankidroid is a non-profi…

> Anki and Ankidroid are not the same entity So... why is one soliciting donations on behalf of the other?! My Fraud Meter is rising, not falling here. > It's also just some nerd programmers who ported Anki to run on Android. It's not some org with a revenue stream and attorneys. "Just Some Nerd Programmers" don't, very obviously, have standing to solicit tax exempt donations. Rising further still... I think a lot of…

> I think a lot of people here are operating on the assumption that apps have the inherent right to ask for money on a proprietary platform that gives them a monetization path.

no one here thinks that there is an "inherent right" to ask for money on a proprietary platform. That's a strawman.

You're also still wrong about the nature of AnkiDroid, and it's making you look silly when you're so confident and rude about it.

Re: AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

#269

Post by ajross »

KPGv2 wrote: post #268
ajross wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anki and Ankidroid are not the same entity So... why is one soliciting donations on behalf of the other?! My Fraud Meter is rising, not falling here. > It's also just some nerd programmers who ported Anki to run on Android. It's not some org with a revenue stream and attorneys. "Just Some Nerd Programmers" don't, very obviously, have standing to solicit tax exempt donations. Rising further still... I think a lot of…

> I think a lot of people here are operating on the assumption that apps have the inherent right to ask for money on a proprietary platform that gives them a monetization path. no one here thinks that there is an "inherent right" to ask for money on a proprietary platform. That's a strawman. You're also still wrong about the nature of AnkiDroid, and it's making you look silly when you're so confident and rude about i…

> You're also still wrong about the nature of AnkiDroid

So were you though, if you're still standing by "just some nerd programmers". They want to take donations through an outside payment processor, which they simply can't do and you know it. Like, seriously, give me the one sentence summary of what Google is doing wrong here that wouldn't enable essentially arbitrary fraud.

Apps can't put up donation links except in extremely limited circumstances, and this isn't one. And, again, you know it.

Genuinely sorry for being rude, if this seems rude. Doesn't seem rude to me though in context. You were the one who started with the aggressive rhetoric ("harping on", yada yada). We're just flaming, things get hot.

Re: AnkiDroid: Google Play no longer allowing Open Collective donation link

#270

Post by dataflow »

dataflow wrote: post #262
rangerelf wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you worried Android is going to lose power users to iPhone? What are the alternative shops you're referring to here? We're not buying pastries. Are you 13 years old? Who in their right mind would even care that "all the power users" went and bought iPhones? Are thoughts like this keeping you up at night? > I don't know if people's imaginations are lacking here, but there could easily be a world in which your 'a…

> So you DO know what's going on! In that case I have no idea why you're arguing in favor of having a gate placed in front of our [personal, owned] phones to regulate what we do with our own devices. Then you're not understanding anything I'm writing, and I don't have the energy to keep going. All I'm saying is that you need to pick your battles carefully and be honest about your goals if you want to have a fighting…

Just wanted to amend this to note that what I wrote also applies to the war against ownership, etc... I'm making no attempt to be exhaustive here, just trying to get a larger point across.
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