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Apple reveals 'shocking evidence' from ex-employee's MacBook in OpenAI suit

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Re: Apple reveals 'shocking evidence' from ex-employee's MacBook in OpenAI suit

#101

Post by hananova »

kodablah wrote: post #82
Jtsummers wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's already some precedent when dealing with humans reverse engineering systems. We use "cleanroom" approaches where the ones doing the reverse engineering are segregated from those doing the later design and development work. Instead of producing a design document based on the thing being studied, the reverse engineers produce a specification from which a new design, untainted by knowledge of the original design…

> The way to do this safely (potentially still with suits happening, but safer at least) will be to have one execution to produce a specification, and a second fresh execution taking the specification to produce a design. I have seen Claude literally suggest using a Sonnet sub agent to read source the main agent shouldn't, and have the sub agent describe the "facts and ideas" via markdown to the parent agent thereby…

Except nobody can prove that those subagents aren't secretly sharing information with the main agent in the backend, and frankly I don't trust Anthropic not to do exactly that to cheese benchmarks.

Re: Apple reveals 'shocking evidence' from ex-employee's MacBook in OpenAI suit

#102

Post by Terr_ »

kodablah wrote: post #82
Jtsummers wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's already some precedent when dealing with humans reverse engineering systems. We use "cleanroom" approaches where the ones doing the reverse engineering are segregated from those doing the later design and development work. Instead of producing a design document based on the thing being studied, the reverse engineers produce a specification from which a new design, untainted by knowledge of the original design…

> The way to do this safely (potentially still with suits happening, but safer at least) will be to have one execution to produce a specification, and a second fresh execution taking the specification to produce a design. I have seen Claude literally suggest using a Sonnet sub agent to read source the main agent shouldn't, and have the sub agent describe the "facts and ideas" via markdown to the parent agent thereby…

> This seems as acceptable as asking a human to do the same.

I wouldn't be surprised if self-bias in the model weights and imperceptible grammar/word/punctuation choices could cause it to duplicate more information than a human-to-human transfer Probably not enough to matter, but...

To put it another way, imagine the task was one human viewing a painting, and then describing it over the phone for another human to paint, so that the final product wasn't really a "copy". Assume everyone has the same eyeballs and art-skills.

I'd expect a massive improvement if the humans on each end were freshly-made clones from a teleporter accident, sharing identical brain-structures and 99.9999% of their memories.

Re: Apple reveals 'shocking evidence' from ex-employee's MacBook in OpenAI suit

#103

Post by mdasen »

microtherion wrote: post #75
gyomu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the rival of course wanted nothing to do with it The key difference here seems to be that OpenAI very much wants something to do with it.

That might be the most embarrassing implication for OpenAI out of the whole affair: That OpenAI, supposedly one of the vanguards in AI, saw a need to appropriate intellectual property of Apple, supposedly a complete laggard in that field.

Were they trying to get Apple's AI IP? I haven't followed that closely, but it seems like a lot of it has been around hardware design, not AI.

Re: Apple reveals 'shocking evidence' from ex-employee's MacBook in OpenAI suit

#104

Post by iAMkenough »

2legit2quit wrote: post #93
biggc wrote: post #17

> Additionally, Apple learned about Liu’s use of the schematic because he used it on a Mac mini which later synced via iCloud to the MacBook he took from Apple. Apple now also wants access to that Mac mini. I'm very curious about the privacy implications of this. I know that anything I do and store on my company's laptop can be tracked, but I hadn't considered that if I forgot to sign out of my personal Gmail on it t…

> I'm very curious about the privacy implications of this. I know that anything I do and store on my company's laptop can be tracked, but I hadn't considered that if I forgot to sign out of my personal Gmail on it that they could legally search that information. If it's work-related, work computer only. If it's anything personal, personal computer only. This is especially true for situations where companies are using…

I was under the impression that Apple requires its employees to login with personal Apple ID accounts for cloud storage.

> “You go through these steps of getting all your software set up, and all your devices provisioned to access internal Apple networks, and things like that. And it explicitly says you cannot use your corporate Apple account to set this up.”

https://cybersecurityventures.com/does-apple-spy-on-its-empl...

Re: Apple reveals 'shocking evidence' from ex-employee's MacBook in OpenAI suit

#105

Post by apatheticonion »

MrKiwi wrote: post #97
computerex wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow that got dark real quick, mind sharing any links/evidence? Never would have thought NZ has a CSAM problem.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/crime-and-justice/1101088/aucklan... https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/second-auckland-police-officer... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/crime-and-justice/567348/revealed... It's not all sunshine and rainbows in our little country

It's rarely sunshine, but there are a lot of rainbows!

Re: Apple reveals 'shocking evidence' from ex-employee's MacBook in OpenAI suit

#107

Post by Muromec »

hananova wrote: post #101
kodablah wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way to do this safely (potentially still with suits happening, but safer at least) will be to have one execution to produce a specification, and a second fresh execution taking the specification to produce a design. I have seen Claude literally suggest using a Sonnet sub agent to read source the main agent shouldn't, and have the sub agent describe the "facts and ideas" via markdown to the parent agent thereby…

Except nobody can prove that those subagents aren't secretly sharing information with the main agent in the backend, and frankly I don't trust Anthropic not to do exactly that to cheese benchmarks.

You can always see the context trace and you can even do it at the network boundary through mitm and then store the traces gzipped for some legally mandated 5 years or what you have there.

Re: Apple reveals 'shocking evidence' from ex-employee's MacBook in OpenAI suit

#108

Post by morganw »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #71
steveBK123 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I forgot to sign out of my personal Gmail Never, ever, ever sign into personal mail/messaging on work machines. Even the appearance of having done so just sets up for bad things. This was kinda iffy 20 years ago, now its crazy to do. We all have phones now, there's no good reason to do this.

> Never, ever, ever sign into personal mail/messaging on work machines apple explicitly encourages their employees to do exactly this - it's called "carry"ing your work device.

encourages, but doesn’t require. My work phone is an iPhone 14 that I only use for Slack notifications & to check the next day’s schedule when I don’t want to bother opening their laptop.

Re: Apple reveals 'shocking evidence' from ex-employee's MacBook in OpenAI suit

#109

Post by aeternum »

dgellow wrote: post #3

The claims: - Mr. Liu not only downloaded a confidential Apple circuit schematic but also used it in his work at OpenAI; - Far from his unauthorized access to Apple’s third-party cloud storage being unknown to him, Mr. Liu and others at OpenAI were well-aware of that access; - Mr. Liu, upon learning of Apple’s internal investigation of him, sent instructions for destroying evidence to an OpenAI colleague who confirme…

Sounds like Apple might soon own some Jalapeño

Re: Apple reveals 'shocking evidence' from ex-employee's MacBook in OpenAI suit

#110

Post by brazukadev »

apatheticonion wrote: post #106

I know it's unethical, but when I read this, I can't help but hope a pseudo-cleanroom/ai-laundered Linux GPU driver appears for MacBooks. What I wouldn't give to run Linux on my Apple hardware.

that's not unethical at all.
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