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The creator of Jujutsu has joined ERSC

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Re: The creator of Jujutsu has joined ERSC

#101

Post by Waterluvian »

saghm wrote: post #90
steveklabnik wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll be saying more about this very soon, but the short version is this: we are not building a GitHub competitor in the way that SourceHut or Codeberg are. We are building infrastructure for enterprises, not a social coding site. While jj works with git, it doesn't have to. jj has the ability to work with many backends. Git is the popular one in the open source world, but that doesn't mean that other ones are not po…

All but one of my employers have used either Github or Gitlab, and at every one of them there were a litany of complaints about whichever one we were using. It's kind of surprising to me that someone might not immediately recognize that there's certainly potential there for something better suited to what companies are actually looking for. Obviously there's no guarantee of success, and maybe the problem is too hard…

I think it’s partly about how many steps back you take. Take another step back and you might see a new option that will in ten years be added to your list of options lots of people use and have plenty of complaints about.

I’m not saying not to try or that there’s no value in turning the wheel once more. But I used to be excited about these kinds of things and now I’m not because I’ve seen the cycle a few times now.

Re: The creator of Jujutsu has joined ERSC

#103

Post by steveklabnik »

tolerance wrote: post #102

I'm way more interested in knowing what technologies Steve Klabnik is eyeing and planning to get involved with next.

I joined ERSC ten months ago!

The things I am most interested in right now are jj and llms. And the intersection between the two. I'm thinking a lot these days about how agentic development is changing our industry, with source control being one part of that.

Re: The creator of Jujutsu has joined ERSC

#104

Post by nickisnoble »

figbert wrote: post #93
steveklabnik wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! We liked our old look, but one funny thing about how things are going in the world: our old color scheme was too close to what happens when you ask Claude to generate a site, and so even though we paid a human to build it, we didn't want to communicate slop, especially because that's not what we did! Nick Noble is our designer, he put in a bunch of work on this, and I really like it too.

Nick is great! Met him at the Recurse Center. Brilliant designer.

:octopus:!

Re: The creator of Jujutsu has joined ERSC

#105

Post by skydhash »

saghm wrote: post #84
drsouth wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will this have any chance if Jujutsu/jj doesn't get more traction? The effort to learn a new VCS is less than for a programming language, but many developers have not learned git in depth, and Mercurial and others have not gained a lot of traction.

I'd argue that the reason a lot of developers have not learned git in depth is because it's actually kind of terrible from a UX standpoint (lots of inconsistent naming of things and somewhat leaky abstractions), and that Mercurial faced an uphill battle in large part because it lacked compatibility with what people were already using. I haven't used Mercurial, but from what I've heard quite a lot of how jj does thing…

> I'd argue that the reason a lot of developers have not learned git in depth is because it's actually kind of terrible from a UX standpoint

Not really. I remember my early years with git and the favt was that I never needed more than clone, add, commit, pull and push. While I’ve done some mistakes that got ne to learn more, especially with creating branches and undoing. I’ve never needed a lot, even when I started using GUI which exposed more concepts.

Why? Because I have no understanding of version management and how it’s useful in a dev workflow/release process. I was just using it for checking in work.

Since then, I’ve read the “Pro Git” book, learned how devs and teams handle versioning and devel a good understanding of how git can help me in my coding process and general software development. And it’s very good at what it does.

Re: The creator of Jujutsu has joined ERSC

#106

Post by Arainach »

gritzko wrote: post #98
Arainach wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Git already won through Github, the Linux kernel, and other important projects. Even if you like Mercurial's syntax better (I do) and wish it won (I do), that battle was over many years ago. jj's data store is git. You can use jj while other people on your project just use git. There's no migration of data or history. You can use Github and all of the various git tooling that exists today. As such, the initial cost o…

It is possible to move one step further: use own store, speak git protocol. In the end, it is about the commit-tree-blob model. I think, the main headwind is the broad decay of interest in computer science topics. Where can I read on jj merge resolution strategies? LLM links to Arch Linux man page and other random stuff.

Using a different data store breaks compatibility and dramatically increases the friction to switching to it. jj's superpower is that my usage of it is invisible. Right now I'm working on Github projects in jj where none of the other contributors are. Nothing about my usage of jj requires them to change anything they do.

The jj tutorial is useful: https://docs.jj-vcs.dev/latest/tutorial/

Re: The creator of Jujutsu has joined ERSC

#107

Post by nickisnoble »

spankibalt wrote: post #71
nickisnoble wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! There will be a lot more of it soon :D

Hire somebody who's got at least a modicum of understanding of (web) typography. Small hint: A moving background layer makes reading supremely annoying, and for some people even (virtually) impossible.

I'll have it stop on non-homepages, it should also respect reduce-motion.

Any other reccs?

Re: The creator of Jujutsu has joined ERSC

#108

Post by steveklabnik »

jdc-pub wrote: post #99
steveklabnik wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll be saying more about this very soon, but the short version is this: we are not building a GitHub competitor in the way that SourceHut or Codeberg are. We are building infrastructure for enterprises, not a social coding site. While jj works with git, it doesn't have to. jj has the ability to work with many backends. Git is the popular one in the open source world, but that doesn't mean that other ones are not po…

I’m very excited to see the great work ERSC has/will do. When thinking about where Git lags today, I’ve come up with three categories: UX features and custom data not natively understood by the Git CLI, a stock git-http-backend that doesn’t scale well to moderate monorepo size in server compute / storage, and a wire protocol that isn’t as flexible as it could be for special requests. But there are so many hooks into…

Thanks!

Yes, it's important to realize that git is multiple things: the on-disk repo format, the CLI, and the wire protocol. Each has their own challenges, just like any project, but they can be tackled independently. But at the end of the day, there just are fundamental limits to the way that git does things that make total sense in the context Linus developed git for, but just do not in other ones. Some of those are performance related, but some of those are things like how the kernel is an open source project, and so per-directory ACLs are something that git wouldn't ever bother supporting, but are valuable for companies. We'll be talking about these things in the future, so I'm just going to be hand-wavy about it right now. But we do think that git is a really great system that has served us all well for 20 years, but just like how git displaced systems before it due to significantly re-thinking the details, for some users, making meaningful improvements over git will also require a similar significant re-think. That's just the way of technological development.

Re: The creator of Jujutsu has joined ERSC

#109

Post by victorbjorklund »

fallat wrote: post #12

Someone will have to explain the value proposition to me... We have git. jujutsu works with git. git can do everything jujutsu can do (otherwise, jujutsu couldn't work with git). Thus, jujutsu is a UX / new steering wheel. ERSC is trying to be a GitHub competitor with what surplus value? Don't get me wrong, GitHub has a slew of its own problems, but I have not seen any commentary on how ERSC addresses any of the down…

Assembly can do everything Python/Java/Rust can do yet you might not wanna code in assembly if you don’t have to.

Re: The creator of Jujutsu has joined ERSC

#110

Post by steveklabnik »

saghm wrote: post #92
pwdisswordfishq wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The enterprise sounds accurate. You mention performance issues with Git, but there are performance issues with this blog post.

If the worst thing you can say about a git hosting provider is that the performance of their blog is worse than the performance of their git servers, I think they're probably doing an okay job.

While this is true, we do care about performance tremendously, and the animation not having good performance cuts against that, so I think it's a very fair criticism. Paying attention to details matters.
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