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Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

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Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DF is extremely fun.

And in the same way, it's a game's job to make sure their players have fun, one of which is to have a good onboarding experience.

Plenty of players have fun with the game, regardless of your personal opinions on the "on-boarding experience".

I think you want this game to be something it's not. It's not a casual game for casual gamers. It's a game whose mantra is literally "losing is fun". It's esoteric menus and attention to detail are the result of decades of work by a couple of guys that just wanted to make the game they and their fans wanted to make.

It's imperfections are part of it's charm and if that turns you off from the game then it's not for you and that's OK.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#222
post #211
post #3

I wish nothing but success to Tarn and Zach, it’s great that releasing on Steam and adding a friendlier UI helped the game reach new audiences. It’s the proverbial time black hole.

Dwarf Fortress's Steam UI is by far, my least favorite thing about the game. Does anyone else agree? After playing with the Lazy Newb's Pack and other similar tools for years, I found the Steam version to be a maaaaasive downgrade. The mouse was tied to the framerate, everything felt sluggish and hard to control. It really irks me because I had been telling everyone for years to play this game, and finally it gets an…

Granted I haven't played the steam version in awhile, I didn't have a ton of issues with it, and the non-steam version was just not for me. Additionally, I believe they hired another dev who was cleaning up a lot of things, so maybe better now?

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#223
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try the game again, the performance has improved significantly. One major problem that was affecting most players were the line–of–sight calculations. Every person and animal in the game has an opinion of every other, and can get mood changes simply from seeing people (or animals) that they like or dislike. And that opinion is both based on the history of interactions between them as well as other factors like consan…

So what we're saying here is that personal computers can run open weights models that can literally code earlier versions of Dwarf Fortress all by themselves, but handling lines of sight for a 101st dwarf in a mountain fortress remains past the frontier of computer science. I love this so much.

O(n²) scaling is brutal. If n=100, then that is 100×100=10,000 mood checks. When n=101, that grows to 101² = 10201. 102² is 10404. You see how fast it is growing¹? Every person you add causes far more mood checks than the last person you added. There is nothing that computer science can do to reduce this growth. The whole study of computer science is the study of the limits of computing, and these are the limits. No amount of brain sweat can reduce the the rate at which the problem scales.

Of course we could redefine the problem; make each mood check simpler, for example. We could simply leave some of the current factors out of the calculation, so that the calculations are cheaper to do. For example we could make the mood check ignore consanguinity. A dwarf’s reaction would depend only on whether they saw a friend or not, but not on whether they saw a cousin or a sister. That will allow us to scale to higher population counts, but we still face the fact that there will be _some_ population limit.

Or we could reduce n somehow. For example, we could arbitrarily decide that some of the population doesn’t participate in line of sight checks. Maybe livestock are never checked at all, so the 50 cats don’t make n bigger. But then your cats won’t run away from zombie invaders, because they don’t check line of sight to see what is around them. Is that acceptable? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it’s disappointing to to the game designer but they go ahead with the change because the players will still have fun.

The third thing to do is to optimize the mood checks so that they use the processor more efficiently. This is hard but doable, and can be done without changing the problem. And in fact it has already been done, to one extent or another. But modern processors are actually pretty hard to optimize for, and all the low–hanging fruit has been picked. For example, I have a 16–core CPU, and until a few years ago the game could only use one of those cores to run the line of sight checks on. The other 15 would be idle. That obviously leaves a lot of performance on the table. Now that the game uses all 16 cores equally you’ll find that n has gone up quite a lot. But it didn’t go from 100 to 1600, it went from 100 to about 400. 100²=10,000 line of sight mood checks, and 400²=160,000 mood checks. But once spread over 16 cores that’s still 10,000 per core! So now it can do the line of sight mood checks for a population of 400 in the same time as it could do them for a population of 100, only a 4× improvement. And if your CPU only has 8 cores then the new limit for you is really a population of about 283, etc.

But there is still more processing power in our CPUs that is going untapped by DF, and language models are actually really good at making use of that power. A modern CPU can run SIMD, or Single Instruction Multiple Data, instructions that can operate on many values at once. It can multiply two numbers together, or it can multiply a vector of 4, 8, 16, or even 32 numbers together all at once. And multiplying the vectors takes the same amount of time as multiplying two ordinary numbers! All a language model is doing is repeated matrix multiplication, which boils down to multiplying lots of individual numbers together. An LLM is _only_ doing vector instructions on 32 half–width floats at a time, over and over again, but DF doesn’t have that luxury. Most of what DF does just cannot be done using vector math in any useful fashion. The graphics could be (sprite compositing), but DF sends all of the graphics over to the GPU instead. So LLMs are not an apples–to–apples comparison for Dwarf Fortress.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#224
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love DF, havent played the steam version. The menus and lack of native ui controls for some things (dfhack) were by far the biggest problem, not the ascii. I get that the ascii is noisy and a matter of taste - not disputing that - but there were much bigger UX problems.

Steam version is much worse than the fan UI options that were already available, sadly. Its also why I explain why DF really failed to take off after the Steam release. It's nowhere near the best, or even best looking, way to play the game.

I pretty strongly disagree. I can see some preferring some fan art style over the official one, even if I don't. But the official gui having support for rendering all the various critters, and factoring in clothing, multi-level, etc, really made the Steam version's graphics vastly better than anything else that was available at the time.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#225
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dwarf Fortress's Steam UI is by far, my least favorite thing about the game. Does anyone else agree? After playing with the Lazy Newb's Pack and other similar tools for years, I found the Steam version to be a maaaaasive downgrade. The mouse was tied to the framerate, everything felt sluggish and hard to control. It really irks me because I had been telling everyone for years to play this game, and finally it gets an…

I don't mind the UI so much but my biggest issue is they got rid of the keyboard controls. I really wish they'd put some actual effort into the graphics of the game. Even some minimal animations would be nice.

I actually think this type of suggestion/thinking is not good for the game. the mystique of dwarf fortress is that it's a game that plays in your imagination, not on the screen. the point of the ascii visuals is to give a player enough context to understand the state of the world, but it's intentionally obtuse so fun arrises from your brain having to color in all the details. any suggestion that tries to add more polish to the graphics brings you farther away from where the fun lives

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#226
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Dwarf Fortress only exists because it was given away for free for decades, bringing in tens of thousands of dollars in donations, and eventually leading to a fandom popular enough to bring others onboard with the project to produce a GUI and paid steam release version. If something you build brings in a lot of critique, it is likely something of great value. Because something that doesn't have value won't bring…

Tens of thousands dollars of donations over decades is a very small amount of money even outside US.

Their donation revenue was alright for a pretty significant chunk of that time. For the first decade it was ~$5k/month, which jumped up to ~$10k/month for the second decade before the Steam release.

Toady wasn't exactly raking in the cash, but he didn't need another job.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#227

They can make a simulation of magic based on the fabric of a procedural universe work, but even they failed to make a simulation of economics work. Fantasy magic makes more sense than modern economic theory.

For this one, I loved playing Dofus when I was younger. It was (hopefully still) a quite popular french turn-by-turn 2D MMORPG. The main goal is PoE or PvP, but actually I ended up fully playing for the economy. You can get a job with its own leveling system, like a farmer, cutting crops, collaborate with a baker who will make you a cut so that he can get baker xp, and then sell the bread in an auction based local ma…

You might really enjoy Caravaneer 2 (the original was a flash game, RIP, but the sequel requires no knowledge of the original). Whole game is traveling around a wasteland, hauling trade goods between towns that have their own industries, and thus varying supply and demand for various goods.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind the UI so much but my biggest issue is they got rid of the keyboard controls. I really wish they'd put some actual effort into the graphics of the game. Even some minimal animations would be nice.

I actually think this type of suggestion/thinking is not good for the game. the mystique of dwarf fortress is that it's a game that plays in your imagination, not on the screen. the point of the ascii visuals is to give a player enough context to understand the state of the world, but it's intentionally obtuse so fun arrises from your brain having to color in all the details. any suggestion that tries to add more pol…

Going to have to agree to disagree here. Graphical polish would make it much more enjoyable for me, and I spent enough time with the ascii version back in the day to get used to it.

Good thing is they can and do have both styles.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#229
post #38

I'm still pissed about the fact that they essentially gave the finger to everyone who has been long-term supporters - when they added the G to their UI, they essentially scrapped the old. In favor of a mouse-driven design, they dropped the old, keyboard-driven UI. Long-term supporters, in this case, means people paying, and not insubstantial amounts either - before they partnered with Kitfox, they used to publish how…

Adding a G to the UI is 'giving the finger' to their old players? When they include support for ASCII-like tilesets so you can play the exact same way? "Gamers" are the most entitled people on earth, I swear

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#230
post #21
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minecraft was very fun and was selling like hotcakes when it had "no tutorial to speak of, no on-ramps for new players". Even nowadays there's no tutorial as far as I know and much of how to play is left to discovery. The achievements tree is a bit of a guide, just by telling you some of the things that are possible, but it sure doesn't tell you how to do anything. I think having an official tutorial or an on-ramp fo…

As soon as I bought Minecraft I opened the Wiki and used that to figure out how to craft stuff. It was the first mainstream Wiki-based game. Now, every game does it that way.

>It was the first mainstream Wiki-based game. Now, every game does it that way.

the wow wiki was from 04, the minecraft wiki is from 09.

... and wow was very documentation based for people pre-quest-helpers.

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