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Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

wsj.com

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Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#171

Post by 15155 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #108
michaelt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two types of GPS jamming. There's GPS jamming by the military, mostly in war zones. This seldom effects airliners because they steer clear of active war zones. Then there's GPS jamming by delivery drivers who don't want their boss watching over their shoulder all the time. When the article mentions jammers as small as a cellphone and costing less than $100, those are sold to drivers. Delivery drivers don't…

> boss watching over their shoulder all the time Sounds like the root cause to me. It should be illegal to use GNSS to track employees, or anyone really. Jamming is starting to sound a lot like self-defense against surveillance.

So as a business owner, I'm not allowed to know where my $100,000 asset is? My insurance carrier requires me to track the vehicle as a condition of coverage, they also require a dashcam be operating at all times.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#172

Post by nutjob2 »

noipv4 wrote: post #164

Jamming and spoofing have come out of the shadows and into the mainstream. Naive receivers will soon be outclassed by smart receivers.

This is what I wonder about. Do GPS receivers, aviation class ones, just accept signals coming from whatever location (maybe not from the sky), at whatever strength and reporting whatever location? Also I imagine inertial navigation still works. Using a last "known good" position, can that be used to do a sanity check and too weed out bad actors?

It's like the internet all over again, where adversarial players were just not considered.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#173

Post by giantg2 »

This really shouldn't be a problem. We were lazy with GPS. Maps, compasses, altimeters, etc all still exist. They might not offer the same precision as GPS, but they can easily fill the gaps. We already have inertia guidance systems for munitions. That's pretty accurate and similar in theory.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#174

Post by bluGill »

deadbabe wrote: post #157
elric wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly suspect those would be very illegal and could result in serious side effects, such as for people who use continuous glucose monitors.

Oh wow but a GPS jammer is okay so someone could get lost and possibly killed, or even crash a plane?

Who said a GPS jammer is okay? They are highly illegal in the US and the FCC will hand out large fines when they find one. GPS jammers are cheap though and so it is unlikely the FCC will catch the majority of users.

Though most GPS jamming is by countries at war. Russia has a large GPS jamming operation around Ukraine, and this often affects GPS in other parts of Europe as well. I have no information, but I would be surprised if Iran wasn't also jamming GPS (off and on depending on the current state of their war). You can safely assume every military in the world has some GPS jammers that they have plans to use if it makes sense to them.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#175

Post by geerlingguy »

ianburrell wrote: post #91
teeray wrote: post #2

I saw some rumblings (can't find an article) that there's interest in restarting LORAN to provide an alternative to GPS for this reason.

eLoran has been proposed as more accurate version of LORAN competitive with GPS. The Wikipedia page says that China has deployed an eLoran network but I can't tell if used for navigation or just high-precision timing.

The US has done tests with eLoran as well. The receivers are quite expensive and the signal isn't permanent yet, so it's more of a lab thing right now. Also experiments with BPS (Broadcast Positioning System) using high power TV transmitters to distribute time and position in urban areas (very hard to overpower that signal).

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#176

Post by bluGill »

nutjob2 wrote: post #172
noipv4 wrote: post #164

Jamming and spoofing have come out of the shadows and into the mainstream. Naive receivers will soon be outclassed by smart receivers.

This is what I wonder about. Do GPS receivers, aviation class ones, just accept signals coming from whatever location (maybe not from the sky), at whatever strength and reporting whatever location? Also I imagine inertial navigation still works. Using a last "known good" position, can that be used to do a sanity check and too weed out bad actors? It's like the internet all over again, where adversarial players were j…

It likely is the case that most GPS receives, even aviation class ones just accept signals.

Until a couple years ago this was a theoretical issue that few real world people ever dealt with. Military class GPS likely has some form of protection (but what is classified) since military use of jammers have been known for a few decades - but they were very limited use and so non-militaries just ignored them.

Today things are different. Russia's military is jamming GPS on a large scale and that is affecting areas outside the war zone. GPS jammers are also cheap enough that the FCC and similar organizations (most non-poor countries have one) are unable to keep up with all the illegal uses (most countries have laws predating GPS that make these jammers illegal)

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#177

Post by stackedinserter »

elric wrote: post #117
Descon wrote: post #96

I wish there were cheap Bluetooth jammers to prevent speakers from playing when hiking

I strongly suspect those would be very illegal and could result in serious side effects, such as for people who use continuous glucose monitors.

Even this highly theoretical harm can be avoided if you jam bluetooth with 50% duty cycle. Like, 2s on then 2s off.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#178

Post by stackedinserter »

ivanjermakov wrote: post #143
Descon wrote: post #96

I wish there were cheap Bluetooth jammers to prevent speakers from playing when hiking

Should be easy to purchase a 2.4GHz jammer, about as easy as to get in trouble for using it though.

How do you _realistically_ get in trouble for using it? Jam 2.4 at an airport or near military base?

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#179

Post by bluGill »

mschuster91 wrote: post #72
leonidasrup wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 21st century you don't do astronavigation by hand, you use cameras, computers and software. Astro-inertial guidance is used for example in submarine-launched ballistic missiles. "Astro-inertial guidance, or stellar-inertial guidance, is a sensor fusion-information fusion of inertial guidance and celestial navigation. It is usually employed on submarine-launched ballistic missiles. Unlike silo-based intercontin…

Yeah but good luck getting that approved for new airliner designs, much less retrofitting it into existing airliners. For the older ones, you'd probably need to rework half their computers.

Approval in aviation is hard, no argument there. Everybody making a GPS is aware of jamming issues and looking at what their options are. I doubt there is any option that isn't expensive and years out from airplanes. However they are likely to start rolling things out in the next few years just because they need to do something.

Don't forget there is a lot more than aviation. Hikers will want jamming protection if it isn't too expensive (depending on what protection we are talking about it come be cheap or expensive)

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#180

Post by davidmurdoch »

josefresco wrote: post #170
542354234235 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We encountered this on the Inca trail in Peru. All it takes is one rude person.

If passing one person the trail playing audible music ruins your entire experience I'd check on your mental health. Seriously. I too can get mad at ridiculous things (line cutters, rude drivers, loud movie goers) and have to make a conscious effort to stop, take a deep breath and ask myself why I'm letting this innocuous thing effect my day.

Imagine the scenario where you end up hiking within earshot and in the same direction as another group.
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