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Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

theguardian.com

191–200 of 255 posts

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#191
post #150

The "battle" for Pluto is an interesting case study in indoctrination. A few generations of children grew up being taught a specific fact, saw it in textbooks, learned mnemonics about it, had memorable cartoon characters named after it, and then one day they were told – with sound reasoning and plenty of scientific evidence – that they should now update their views on the topic. You would think this group of well edu…

Makes me think of possible things with dinosaurs. I haven't followed anything lately but them going from lizards/reptiles to well more bird like creatures is likely similar but less observed.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Planets predate modern astronomy. You have to negotiate with the public if you want to change what “planet” means. To most people, in most contexts, it means 8 or 9 specific things that they have specific ideas about, not a theoretical category of infinite objects.

Few things sound more like more science than "planets". Telling people "Well actually 'planet' isn't a scientific term, it's a historical / cultural term" will also significantly reduce their trust and interest in science.

This is similar to how most people would say that mathematics is about numbers, but the word “number” doesn’t even mean anything in math.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#193
post #150

The "battle" for Pluto is an interesting case study in indoctrination. A few generations of children grew up being taught a specific fact, saw it in textbooks, learned mnemonics about it, had memorable cartoon characters named after it, and then one day they were told – with sound reasoning and plenty of scientific evidence – that they should now update their views on the topic. You would think this group of well edu…

It's a definition. That is not a matter of scientific inquiry or fact, the definition is whatever people want it to be. You're belittling people for ignoring scientific evidence, but there's no scientific evidence to ignore, and cannot be.

I agree with you. However that doesn't explain why people get so upset about a definition being changed - seems just as silly.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#194

> “One of the biggest flaws with the IAU definition is that you can have the same object in two different orbits,” says Kornfeld. “In one, it’s considered a planet, and in the other, it’s not considered a planet.” No, there is no flaw in this, and moreover there is nothing new in this. This is how it has always been, it is not something invented recently. In the Solar System, there are 3 Mercury-sized satellites and…

> The current definition of "planets" and "dwarf planets" is fine. It’s serviceable, but is it ideal? What’s the scientific advantage in categorising “planets” and “dwarf planets” as two separate categories, compared to unifying them into a single category (possibly while retaining the distinction as two different subtypes of “planet”)? Which system would be more scientifically useful? Which would be more parsimoniou…

The current set of planets, we are quite confident to be complete, there are no more planets out there. The set of known dwarf planets is likely to be incomplete, we think there are many more out there. I think that's a useful distinction.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#195
One of the best edutainment YouTubers made a video about Pluto's fate, and it made a lot of sense. The story goes that the IAU redefined "planet" to satisfy schoolteachers and keep curricula sane. That was the primary goal.

So in classical times, the Sun and Moon were classical planets, on the same plane as Mercury, Venus and Jupiter and all the rest. Since the Sun and Moon were planets, they could figure in astrological reckoning in certain ways. And face it, from our observer's perspective, they have a lot in common with actual planets.

In fact, the seven days of the week derive from seven planets: SUNday, MOONday, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. (It helps if you list them in Spanish rather than Germanic tongues.) No, there was no EARTHday or URANUSday (thankful for small favors.)

And in school growing up, many of us learned the nine scientific planets as traditionally defined. Uranus, Neptune, Pluto: all great modern discoveries to add to our pantheon. So nine is a good number. Lots of people can memorize nine and keep a set of nine in our heads.

But then they discovered a tenth and an eleventh and a twelfth, and scientists began to get nervous, because something was up: there were, potentially, dozens or hundreds of "planets" to be discovered at this point, among the asteroids and among the Kuiper Belt. That's all well and good: we can name a lot of bodies out there, but school children cannot learn 3 dozen planets in a row! School teachers would never stand for it! So tedious!

So there you go: the canonical list of planets needed a hard-cap and so, they lined up the 8 we had, and found all the commonalities, crystallized those into the definition, and then circumscribed the list so that it would never again grow without bound. It's not unfair to have a lot of planetoids, or dwarf planets, or asteroids and other things, just floating around. But, the good news was that third graders wouldn't need to memorize them all, and third grade teachers wouldn't need to model a solar system of 30 wonky planetary bodies.

And it's that simple, really. 8 standard planets makes for good basic astronomy, good solid astrology going forward, and peaceful middle-school curriculum. Everything else is just semantics.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are absolutely crazy. There is no defending it. It is something that makes stupid people feel smart. There are easy, verifiable experiments that can be done and they refuse to accept the outcome.

Have you ever called someone crazy, only for them to stop dead in their tracks and say, "wow, you're completely right, how could I have been so blind?" I haven't, and you probably haven't, though if you have, I'd love to hear that story. As I said, they're skeptical of authority and need to run the experiment themselves; some will even flip on flat-earthers who run the experiment and change their minds. Only those wh…

My goal is not to get them to see the light. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. These are profoundly stupid people who are confident they are right and everybody else is wrong.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#197
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science works on logical rules. What logical rule would you propose that allows Pluto to be a planet without also bringing in a bunch of others? If you just want to arbitrarily declare things are they way you like them to be, religion is over there.

>What logical rule would you propose that allows Pluto to be a planet without also bringing in a bunch of others? The rule would be: pluto is a planet, stay mad nerds

I don't have a dog in this fight, but the real rule appears to be "that's the way I learned it in school".

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#198
post #80

Pluto was only discovered in the 1930s. The only cultural heritage of Pluto as a ‘planet’ is a few decades of science schoolbooks, but going by these comments you'd think it's been in the same list as Jupiter since the Babylonians.

Easy to say when you didn't grow up counting Pluto as a planet. I still feel a bit depressed every time I tell my son "And there's... 8 planets in the solar system."

Because apparently sometimes between the moment I left elementary school and he went there, some dudes decided that Pluto didn't qualify as a planet after all.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#199
2 things

1. When the IAU voted to demote Pluto, it was the last day of a conference and most of the attendees had already headed home.

2. Pluto has 5 known moons. The week before the New Horizons flyby its computer crashed. This necessitated a multi day reboot. During this downtime the probe had been scheduled to be hunting for additional moons. This hunt never happened. Would Pluto still be a dwarf planet if it had 10 instead of 5 moons?

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#200
post #198
post #80

Pluto was only discovered in the 1930s. The only cultural heritage of Pluto as a ‘planet’ is a few decades of science schoolbooks, but going by these comments you'd think it's been in the same list as Jupiter since the Babylonians.

Easy to say when you didn't grow up counting Pluto as a planet. I still feel a bit depressed every time I tell my son "And there's... 8 planets in the solar system." Because apparently sometimes between the moment I left elementary school and he went there, some dudes decided that Pluto didn't qualify as a planet after all.

Well the definition of science is that it can change when new data is found- that's why it is not a religion.

Our understanding of the universe is after all quite rudimentary. How many centuries did people fantasise about forests on Venus?

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