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Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

theguardian.com

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Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The asset lost in this in this case is from the commons. That is, the ability to say "the ninth planet" or "the planet Pluto" without incurring smug harassment from legions who probably couldn't explain what the IAU is.

Rather ironic to complain about redefining a word by abusing another word beyond recognition.

It’s completely unsurprising to deal with grammar policing over substance, but…

In terms of financial motives, I would reason that a motive for extending the term “planet” to cover the innumerable large objects orbiting other stars would have been as a better sales pitch to Congress. Studying “planets” lightyears away was a sort of brand hack which would have driven more funding. And when the “planets” was established as comprising a virtually infinite set, rather than simply a list of 9 known objects, the nomenclature collapsed in its usefulness, which is why the IAU started looking for a way out of its own hole.

However, as the article here discusses, the IAU’s approach has pretty much failed. It doesn’t hold up to scrutiny as a thing that’s meant to be usefully applied. How exactly do you confirm that all of those exoplanets have actually cleared their neighborhoods, or is the truth that it never actually mattered to anyone in the field?

Have any scientists or agencies written papers or reported to Congress that they discovered or studied some exoplanet — using public funds — when in fact they had no way of confirming whether its neighborhood was cleared? It sounds completely improper to me, but the reality is that it never really mattered.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, call whatever you like whatever you want. Just don't expect schools to teach that to anyone else. We get enough of that from the folks who want to replace science class with "God did it".

who did do it?

Maybe one day we'll know, but for now at least that's a question for theologians and philosophers. I'm content to leave questions about what lies outside of our universe to them.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#153
post #144

Classification is a human invention… are tomatoes, cucumbers and zucchinis fruit or veggies? Non issue.

In science, classification should have some predictive value. You should be able to predict the characteristics or behaviour of a class member based on its classification. For example if you classify something as a fruit you could predict that its seeds should be on the inside.

Classifying Pluto as a planet is problematic because it lacks the behaviour and characteristics of something that formed according to theories of how planets form. If you tried to describe what a planet should look like based on the nebula hypothesis, you would not be describing Pluto.

Instead it has behaviour and characteristics a lot like the many trans-Neptunian objects, so it makes more sense to classify it that way.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hardly on par in terms of stupidity, but one thing you learn from flat-earthers is that humans love disagreeing with a consensus. Nothing make a certain type of person feel smarter than disagreeing with everyone. If you say the sky is blue I'm going to say it's green because I'm so smart.

>If you say the sky is blue I'm going to say it's green because I'm so smart. Flat-earthers are definitely wrong about the shape of the earth, but even they admit the sky is blue, assuming they aren't afflicted with some unfortunate variety of colorblindness. In my observations of flat-earthers, they're people who reject the consensus surrounding a particular fact because they haven't observed that fact for themselve…

But how could you be alive and not have observed that the earth is curved? Why does a mountain, building or ship disappear over the horizon if the earth is not curved? That alone should be sufficient evidence to believe that the scientific consensus on this is likely to be true.

I have not observed directly that a human will die after 3 days without water but having experienced thirst & dehydration in limited amounts, I have no reason to doubt that is likely the case.

That's what I don't understand supposed "rational" flat earthers. It's fine and somewhat rational to be skeptical of authority but when the contrary idea takes enormous leaps of faith to consider, it seems weird to me to believe something for the sake of it.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, call whatever you like whatever you want. Just don't expect schools to teach that to anyone else. We get enough of that from the folks who want to replace science class with "God did it".

who did do it?

Why does anyone need to "do it"? Who did God?

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather ironic to complain about redefining a word by abusing another word beyond recognition.

It’s completely unsurprising to deal with grammar policing over substance, but… In terms of financial motives, I would reason that a motive for extending the term “planet” to cover the innumerable large objects orbiting other stars would have been as a better sales pitch to Congress. Studying “planets” lightyears away was a sort of brand hack which would have driven more funding. And when the “planets” was establishe…

Sorry, but how does using “swindle” in a way that’s completely divorced from how it’s normally used qualify as “grammar policing,” but comparing a small change to a scientific definition to a crime is somehow reasonable? Financial motives? Get a grip, man.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few things sound more like more science than "planets". Telling people "Well actually 'planet' isn't a scientific term, it's a historical / cultural term" will also significantly reduce their trust and interest in science.

Hey, don’t blame me, blame the IAU for opening that can of worms. I’m just happy calling Pluto a “planet” and would rather the IAU had left me in peace — they’re the ones who want to argue with me about what words I’m supposed to say and when I’m supposed to say them. I’d encourage you to think about the impact of science fiction on interest in science. Culture is an extremely powerful force. I don’t think your conce…

There was no do nothing option, the IAU didn't open the can of words. 10 new objects that would be called planets under the old definition were discovered. "Doing nothing" would have led to far more significant changes.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#158

I'm in the same camp. I believe the classification of Pluto as a dwarf planet was arbitrary and inconsistent. I mean, it's been known as a planet for almost 80 years and suddenly we demote it? I believe someone was trying to make a name for themselves here and ignoring the history of Pluto and its discovery.

It was fine and dandy until Eris came along. Eris is bigger than Pluto, so if Pluto’s a planet then so is Eris. So you have 10 planets. And then how many other Erises are still hiding? How many planets do we have then? It must be some very large unknown number! Holding the true number of planets to be a large unknown number was anathema to many. The demotion of Pluto was primarily motivated by a desire for the word “…

> Eris is bigger than Pluto, so if Pluto’s a planet then so is Eris. So you have 10 planets.

Which is exactly how I remember learning it at the end of highschool (discovered during my junior year): Hey, did you know we just discovered a tenth planet?

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pluto makes for a great lesson about science itself. Our view of the universe we live in changes over time as we get more information about it. Children should learn to expect that and to understand that it isn't a bad thing, or a flaw with science, but a vital part of the process and when it happens things are working as intended. That means that today Pluto isn't a planet, even though for a small time it used to be…

> Pluto makes for a great lesson about science itself. I disagree. Quibbling about a definition like that is like quibbling about whether a certain bird is a black-crowned Night-Heron or a black-crowned Night Heron (without the second hyphen), which is a real controversy that took place. I suppose it shows a socially constructed, human aspect of science, but it really has very little to do with actually understanding…

In a sense you're right, the need to classify things is really for our convenience. Those classifications can be extremely helpful though and it's for that reason that we try to come up with good systems of classification and re-evaluate what goes where as we learn more.

The universe doesn’t care about our arbitrary stamp-collection-style classification of objects, anymore than it cares about where elements sit on the periodic table, but for us humans having things classified and ordered is a big deal. It's our constant arbitrary naming and organizing and classifying that allows letters to get delivered to my house and packets to reach my network. It gives us more precise language and enables better focus on what matters. It helps build a foundation for teaching and research. It helps to catalogue all we've learned. While you'll find plenty of ego fueled petty squabbles around the naming and classifying of things, it's still a pretty big part of what science does and we'd struggle to teach or coordinate any sort of meaningful science without it.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s completely unsurprising to deal with grammar policing over substance, but… In terms of financial motives, I would reason that a motive for extending the term “planet” to cover the innumerable large objects orbiting other stars would have been as a better sales pitch to Congress. Studying “planets” lightyears away was a sort of brand hack which would have driven more funding. And when the “planets” was establishe…

Sorry, but how does using “swindle” in a way that’s completely divorced from how it’s normally used qualify as “grammar policing,” but comparing a small change to a scientific definition to a crime is somehow reasonable? Financial motives? Get a grip, man.

If you certify that you have discovered an exoplanet and you do not know whether it has cleared its neighborhood, that may be a crime under the IAU’s definition. Possibly a financial crime if research funding was involved. I’m not a lawyer, just someone who can spot a charade every now and then. My guess is the IAU would say, given the challenge, “ah, well of course we didn’t mean for our universal definition for planets to be applied outside of the Solar System!”
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