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Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

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Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#41

Post by StanislavPetrov »

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #14
Catloafdev wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the game is difficult to get into, it's not for everyone. The game is great, though. You are in the "I have no idea what's going on" phase.

It’s the games job to create an on ramp to understanding. It’s not mine to spend 200 hours grasping every concept before I can play “the real game”, that’s just shitty game design.

>It’s the games job to create an on ramp to understanding.

No, it is a games job to be entertaining for those it was designed to entertain.

>It’s not mine to spend 200 hours grasping every concept before I can play “the real game”, that’s just shitty game design.

Certainly there are many people who take a longer time to learn and grasp concepts and find challenging tasks something to be avoided, and this game isn't for you! That doesn't mean that every game should be designed so that the lowest commoner denominator can understand and enjoy the game! Some people not only enjoy being challenged by complex games, but seek those out those challenges and that complexity. The game market is flooded with easy to learn and easy to win games designed and made for simpletons, so there's no reason for you to complain about the rare game (these days) that deviates from that.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#42

Post by pavel_lishin »

bigyabai wrote: post #29
Our_Benefactors wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike dwarf fortress, minecraft is fun and engaging from minute zero, and exposes its systems to you naturally over time. Terrible comparison.

Minecraft's early game is relatively boring. Empty busywork like punching trees, village raids and strip mining are vestigial gameplay loops that neither Mojang nor Microsoft had the confidence to fix. I'd agree that they're a bad comparison though. Despite Notch's inspiration from DF, Minecraft has worse bosses, biomes, trading, mining, diplomacy, cooking, innkeeping and NPCs.

It also has effectively zero physics. I still remember being annoyed at how water worked in Minecraft when playing with my kid, and the fact that trees don't collapse if you cut 'em down.

(Yes, yes, mods exist.)

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#43

Post by duttish »

8note wrote: post #17

What ive generally heard is that this is more of a refactor and base functionality improvement, rather than building out all the actual magic systems to start with. 2-10 updates in the future will have much more fleshed out magic

OPs post made me curious about jumping in, how often do they release updates? If I'm going to wait for this and the next one.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#44

Post by pavel_lishin »

Planktonne wrote: post #37
postalrat wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes me think how would an AI interface to a game like dwarf fortress play out. Where you tell it what you want like some sort of dwarven ruler.

The point of DF, to a large extent, is precise control and detail. It's the opposite of the approach taken by AI games that want to generalise based on simple prompts.

> The point of DF, to a large extent, is precise control and detail.

I don't know, it's basically Minecraft with Lemmings. You control a lot, but at the end, the AI comparison might be somewhat apt - you tell the dwarves what to do, and they mostly do it. When they're not struck by a strange mood, or when they're not too depressed to work, or when they're not being eaten by a Forgotten Beast (beware its deadly dust!)

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#45

Post by Agentlien »

colechristensen wrote: post #33
Mobius01 wrote: post #3

I wish nothing but success to Tarn and Zach, it’s great that releasing on Steam and adding a friendlier UI helped the game reach new audiences. It’s the proverbial time black hole.

I had the muscle memory for the full keyboard control on pre-steam releases and the loss of some complete keyboard controls and things just changing made it so I never really got into the Steam release, which was pretty disappointing. I get it though.

It took me some time to remap the muscle memory but it felt so worth it. The Steam version is not just a new AI, it introduced a lot of gameplay changes which really improved the underlying systems a lot.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#46

Post by nottorp »

flurb wrote: post #38

I'm still pissed about the fact that they essentially gave the finger to everyone who has been long-term supporters - when they added the G to their UI, they essentially scrapped the old. In favor of a mouse-driven design, they dropped the old, keyboard-driven UI. Long-term supporters, in this case, means people paying, and not insubstantial amounts either - before they partnered with Kitfox, they used to publish how…

They also dropped the Mac version.

They complain there are few Mac players on Steam. Well, I'm not going to buy it if it doesn't run on the desktop OS [1] i use most, duh.

[1] My Linux boxes are headless. And the windows boxes I have to RDP into them. That may work for a game with a beginning and and end via Steam streaming or something, but not for a forever game you just keep around.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#47

Post by StanislavPetrov »

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #23
deadbunny wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it the games job to handhold you?

Because it’s not a complete or compelling experience if the systems aren’t naturally exposed and taught over time in a progressive manner. This has been a cornerstone of good game design for over 30 years.

>This has been a cornerstone of good game design for over 30 years.

First, this is completely wrong. There are many good games that have been designed over the last 30 years that didn't assume you were an invalid and needed your hand hand held every step of the way.

Second, many of us (including myself) have been playing computer games for ~50 years! In the 80s and 90s the average game was far more difficult than even the most difficult games put out today. It wasn't assumed that everyone, or even most people, were ever going to beat the game. There were games I played for hundreds of hours back then, and enjoyed greatly, that I never finished or even mastered all the complexities of! That didn't make it any less fun. I want to be challenged by a game. If I load up a game and am spoon-fed everything it isn't a game I play for long.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#49

Post by flurb »

Sharlin wrote: post #35
monospacegames wrote: post #2

It's been a while since I last played DF and I'm surprised to see that both this article and the video are a bit light on details, IIRC they used to showcase upcoming updates a lot more. Digging a bit more it looks like the magic system will be built around deities, spheres of influence [1], and workshops/professions centered around magic leading to procedurally generated spells. I'm really excited to see how it'll t…

This seems more like a teaser trailer. I presume more information is forthcoming.

They have a history of at least trying to be transparent, especially in their Future of the Fortress posts[0]. Emphasize on trying to, as they're not exactly great at sticking to plans, though that certainly improved with the Kitfox partnership.

[0]: https://bay12games.com/dwarves/

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#50

Post by deadbunny »

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #23
deadbunny wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it the games job to handhold you?

Because it’s not a complete or compelling experience if the systems aren’t naturally exposed and taught over time in a progressive manner. This has been a cornerstone of good game design for over 30 years.

Claiming the game of systems and their interactions is not complete or compelling because it doesn't hold you hand is laughable.

Not everything has to be made or everyone, in fact I would argue that is exactly the reason games these days are bland and identical.

Press "F" to pay respects.

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