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Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

theguardian.com

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Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#71

Post by pdonis »

adrian_b wrote: post #17

> “One of the biggest flaws with the IAU definition is that you can have the same object in two different orbits,” says Kornfeld. “In one, it’s considered a planet, and in the other, it’s not considered a planet.” No, there is no flaw in this, and moreover there is nothing new in this. This is how it has always been, it is not something invented recently. In the Solar System, there are 3 Mercury-sized satellites and…

Since the Moon's orbit is always concave towards the Sun, one could even argue that the Moon is a planet, not a satellite, it just happens to have an orbit that is closely coupled to that of another planet, Earth.

As I understand it, in fact, there was discussion about defining systems like Earth-Moon as double planets, but that didn't make it into the final definition.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#72

Post by gus_massa »

elictronic wrote: post #37
gus_massa wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article explains, if you bring back Pluto you must include Eris too, and perhaps Makemake and Haumea if you ignore is not as round as expected, and who know how many other undiscovered small object near them. (And Ceres? I like Ceres.) Anyway, 9 is not an option, you must choose 8 or 10+.

Pluto is grandfathered in through the collective Consciousness of society. Just treat it the same way as tomatoes, which are officially fruits but no child believes that crap.

My daughter heard that tomatoes are fruit in YouTube, and now she wants to reclassify pumpkins and half of the vegetable as fruits.

Next time you go to the grocery, grab a cucumber and a watermelon and try to find the differences.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#73

Post by odyssey7 »

zdragnar wrote: post #56
Planktonne wrote: post #30

The actual problem here is weirdly aggressive nerds who are incapable of nuance, and insist that an astronomical classification (Pluto is not a planet by the IAU definition) should be used in non-astronomical contexts. Historically and culturally, Pluto is considered a planet. An IAU classification shouldn't be used to try and retroactively change that, because the IAU does not have control over history and culture.…

Peanuts, cashews, almonds, walnuts, pecans, Brazil nuts and pistachios are culinary nuts but NOT botanical nuts. Botanical berries: Bananas, tomatoes, grapes, cucumbers, eggplants, avocados and peppers, but NOT strawberries, raspberries, blackberries or mulberries. Scientists really should have made up their own categories instead of using our words.

Well, the thing is, nobody got told, out of nowhere, that the “honorable strawberries” were now called simply “mildly honored straw,” because a committee of so-called experts had expressed their will, and that now everybody had to say “mildly honored straw” instead of “honorable strawberries,” or else they would be *incorrect*, because the science league said so.

The word “planet” signifying a certain reverence, and the fact that a scientific body was now policing everyday language — for the apparently petty reason that we should not honor Pluto as we once did — it was quite a misstep for how people in the public might view science going forward. Unless, perhaps, the idea was to make people more skeptical of scientific results and statements.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#74

Post by bryanlarsen »

hn_submit wrote: post #70
bryanlarsen wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would include Ceres, Quaoar and Orcus as planets. It's really hard to come up with a definition of a planet that includes Pluto but doesn't include Orcus. Orcus is very close to a mirror of Pluto that is 120 degrees out of phase. Even in name: Orcus is the Roman name for the Greek god Pluto.

What part of "we define it so" did you not understand?!

The three I listed are inside Pluto's orbit. Part of the time for the latter 2.

If you want to say that Pluto is a planet for historical reasons, that's fine. Just don't try to invent pseudo-scientific nonsense to justify it at the same time you are decrying psuedo-scientific nonsense.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#75

Post by bryanlarsen »

odyssey7 wrote: post #73
zdragnar wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peanuts, cashews, almonds, walnuts, pecans, Brazil nuts and pistachios are culinary nuts but NOT botanical nuts. Botanical berries: Bananas, tomatoes, grapes, cucumbers, eggplants, avocados and peppers, but NOT strawberries, raspberries, blackberries or mulberries. Scientists really should have made up their own categories instead of using our words.

Well, the thing is, nobody got told, out of nowhere, that the “honorable strawberries” were now called simply “mildly honored straw,” because a committee of so-called experts had expressed their will, and that now everybody had to say “mildly honored straw” instead of “honorable strawberries,” or else they would be *incorrect*, because the science league said so. The word “planet” signifying a certain reverence, and…

The alternative was to announce "we now have 10 more planets, and there are probably a bunch more, and we'll probably never really get a definitive number".

That would also have had an impact on the public view of science. Perhaps not as bad, but it would have had an impact.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#76

Post by odyssey7 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #75
odyssey7 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the thing is, nobody got told, out of nowhere, that the “honorable strawberries” were now called simply “mildly honored straw,” because a committee of so-called experts had expressed their will, and that now everybody had to say “mildly honored straw” instead of “honorable strawberries,” or else they would be *incorrect*, because the science league said so. The word “planet” signifying a certain reverence, and…

The alternative was to announce "we now have 10 more planets, and there are probably a bunch more, and we'll probably never really get a definitive number". That would also have had an impact on the public view of science. Perhaps not as bad, but it would have had an impact.

Planets predate modern astronomy. You have to negotiate with the public if you want to change what “planet” means. To most people, in most contexts, it means 8 or 9 specific things that they have specific ideas about, not a theoretical category of infinite objects.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#77

Post by zdragnar »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #75
odyssey7 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the thing is, nobody got told, out of nowhere, that the “honorable strawberries” were now called simply “mildly honored straw,” because a committee of so-called experts had expressed their will, and that now everybody had to say “mildly honored straw” instead of “honorable strawberries,” or else they would be *incorrect*, because the science league said so. The word “planet” signifying a certain reverence, and…

The alternative was to announce "we now have 10 more planets, and there are probably a bunch more, and we'll probably never really get a definitive number". That would also have had an impact on the public view of science. Perhaps not as bad, but it would have had an impact.

No, the alternative would be to make up some latin sounding words for planets, dwarf planets, etc. and leave the vulgar planet alone to the standard 9 that we all know are planets.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#78

Post by j45 »

Planktonne wrote: post #30

The actual problem here is weirdly aggressive nerds who are incapable of nuance, and insist that an astronomical classification (Pluto is not a planet by the IAU definition) should be used in non-astronomical contexts. Historically and culturally, Pluto is considered a planet. An IAU classification shouldn't be used to try and retroactively change that, because the IAU does not have control over history and culture.…

My understanding was part of the definition was changed thereby recategorizing Pluto?

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#79

Post by odyssey7 »

zdragnar wrote: post #77
bryanlarsen wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative was to announce "we now have 10 more planets, and there are probably a bunch more, and we'll probably never really get a definitive number". That would also have had an impact on the public view of science. Perhaps not as bad, but it would have had an impact.

No, the alternative would be to make up some latin sounding words for planets, dwarf planets, etc. and leave the vulgar planet alone to the standard 9 that we all know are planets.

This is what should have happened. (And it’s not too late — Pluto will remain with us for a while yet.)
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