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Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

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Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#21

Post by jjmarr »

joemi wrote: post #20
Our_Benefactors wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Friendlier” and still one of the worst UIs available. It’s nearly impenetrable and the game has no tutorial to speak of, no on-ramps for new players, and is probably the most overrated game I’ve ever had the displeasure of playing. I’m convinced from articles about dwarf fortress that it’s a game that few actually play and enjoy, but like talking about as if it’s fun. The promise of dwarf fortress is far more intere…

Minecraft was very fun and was selling like hotcakes when it had "no tutorial to speak of, no on-ramps for new players". Even nowadays there's no tutorial as far as I know and much of how to play is left to discovery. The achievements tree is a bit of a guide, just by telling you some of the things that are possible, but it sure doesn't tell you how to do anything. I think having an official tutorial or an on-ramp fo…

As soon as I bought Minecraft I opened the Wiki and used that to figure out how to craft stuff.

It was the first mainstream Wiki-based game. Now, every game does it that way.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#22

Post by Our_Benefactors »

joemi wrote: post #20
Our_Benefactors wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Friendlier” and still one of the worst UIs available. It’s nearly impenetrable and the game has no tutorial to speak of, no on-ramps for new players, and is probably the most overrated game I’ve ever had the displeasure of playing. I’m convinced from articles about dwarf fortress that it’s a game that few actually play and enjoy, but like talking about as if it’s fun. The promise of dwarf fortress is far more intere…

Minecraft was very fun and was selling like hotcakes when it had "no tutorial to speak of, no on-ramps for new players". Even nowadays there's no tutorial as far as I know and much of how to play is left to discovery. The achievements tree is a bit of a guide, just by telling you some of the things that are possible, but it sure doesn't tell you how to do anything. I think having an official tutorial or an on-ramp fo…

Unlike dwarf fortress, minecraft is fun and engaging from minute zero, and exposes its systems to you naturally over time. Terrible comparison.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#23

Post by Our_Benefactors »

deadbunny wrote: post #19
Our_Benefactors wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the games job to create an on ramp to understanding. It’s not mine to spend 200 hours grasping every concept before I can play “the real game”, that’s just shitty game design.

Why is it the games job to handhold you?

Because it’s not a complete or compelling experience if the systems aren’t naturally exposed and taught over time in a progressive manner. This has been a cornerstone of good game design for over 30 years.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#24

Post by zdragnar »

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #14
Catloafdev wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the game is difficult to get into, it's not for everyone. The game is great, though. You are in the "I have no idea what's going on" phase.

It’s the games job to create an on ramp to understanding. It’s not mine to spend 200 hours grasping every concept before I can play “the real game”, that’s just shitty game design.

Somebody didn't grow up with early console games.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#25

Post by bee_rider »

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #14
Catloafdev wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the game is difficult to get into, it's not for everyone. The game is great, though. You are in the "I have no idea what's going on" phase.

It’s the games job to create an on ramp to understanding. It’s not mine to spend 200 hours grasping every concept before I can play “the real game”, that’s just shitty game design.

Not every game can be for everyone, and Dwarf Fortress is not a game for people who want onramps. “Shitty game design” is subjective, I guess.

Maybe the Steam page is too slick? I can’t imagine somebody going to the old dwarf fortress page and thinking “this is a game I’ll pick up easily!”

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#26

Post by hilariously »

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #10
Mobius01 wrote: post #3

I wish nothing but success to Tarn and Zach, it’s great that releasing on Steam and adding a friendlier UI helped the game reach new audiences. It’s the proverbial time black hole.

“Friendlier” and still one of the worst UIs available. It’s nearly impenetrable and the game has no tutorial to speak of, no on-ramps for new players, and is probably the most overrated game I’ve ever had the displeasure of playing. I’m convinced from articles about dwarf fortress that it’s a game that few actually play and enjoy, but like talking about as if it’s fun. The promise of dwarf fortress is far more intere…

As someone whose spent ~5k hours playing DF you are right, every person I have ever talked to about it has liked the idea and like 1/50 has gone on to play it for >10 hours.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#27

Post by AnthonBerg »

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #14
Catloafdev wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the game is difficult to get into, it's not for everyone. The game is great, though. You are in the "I have no idea what's going on" phase.

It’s the games job to create an on ramp to understanding. It’s not mine to spend 200 hours grasping every concept before I can play “the real game”, that’s just shitty game design.

Is it your job to define jobs?

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#28

Post by AnthonBerg »

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #23
deadbunny wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it the games job to handhold you?

Because it’s not a complete or compelling experience if the systems aren’t naturally exposed and taught over time in a progressive manner. This has been a cornerstone of good game design for over 30 years.

There are notable counterexamples. I find life to be both complete and compelling as experience.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#29

Post by bigyabai »

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #22
joemi wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minecraft was very fun and was selling like hotcakes when it had "no tutorial to speak of, no on-ramps for new players". Even nowadays there's no tutorial as far as I know and much of how to play is left to discovery. The achievements tree is a bit of a guide, just by telling you some of the things that are possible, but it sure doesn't tell you how to do anything. I think having an official tutorial or an on-ramp fo…

Unlike dwarf fortress, minecraft is fun and engaging from minute zero, and exposes its systems to you naturally over time. Terrible comparison.

Minecraft's early game is relatively boring. Empty busywork like punching trees, village raids and strip mining are vestigial gameplay loops that neither Mojang nor Microsoft had the confidence to fix.

I'd agree that they're a bad comparison though. Despite Notch's inspiration from DF, Minecraft has worse bosses, biomes, trading, mining, diplomacy, cooking, innkeeping and NPCs.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is getting the mother of all magic updates

#30

Post by Catloafdev »

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #23
deadbunny wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it the games job to handhold you?

Because it’s not a complete or compelling experience if the systems aren’t naturally exposed and taught over time in a progressive manner. This has been a cornerstone of good game design for over 30 years.

Eh, I definitely can't agree with this one. Some of the most beloved games of all time had effectively no on-ramp of any kind - especially if you're willing to go back 30 years - and none of the fans of those games would say "they are not compelling experiences" because of a learning cliff.
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