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Google: Lake Ontario/Lake America name change in the U.S. will appear in Maps

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Re: Google: Lake Ontario/Lake America name change in the U.S. will appear in Maps

#81

Post by Pxtl »

brandon272 wrote: post #46

Canadian companies and government websites that use embedded Google Maps are displaying “Lake America”. Not good.

I'm wondering, I haven't used the gmaps API. Is this because they're proxying maps requests through the US, or is there a specific header request to request the US version of the map, or is it just that they've a US-based GApps account?

Many of these are telcos that use "Buy Canadian" patriotism to get governments to protect them from international competitors. It should be scandalous if they're getting all their web front-end services from US companies. I know Google is the big name in maps, so that may be unavoidable and hard to shift, but if it's also the middle web-hosting providers... that's a lot less excusable for companies that love to wrap themselves in the Maple Leaf.

Re: Google: Lake Ontario/Lake America name change in the U.S. will appear in Maps

#82

Post by nicbou »

Pxtl wrote: post #80
nicbou wrote: post #68

I am Canadian. It is and it will stay Lake Ontario. I am mad at Google for a lot of things, but this is not one of them. A map should represent the current reality. Google Maps defaults to the user’s local reality, which seems reasonable to me. I worked at a mapping company and we had similar setups for contested borders. You would get the map that your government accepts. It was not the company’s prerogative to weig…

One kicker is how many sites leveraging Google Maps API in Canada are showing "Lake of America". I'm not sure if that's because they're proxying the Google Maps requests through a US server, or they're using an API call to specifically request the US version of the map. But either way, it's a pretty bad faux pas, especially for oligarchic telcos that wrap themselves in the flag when they're begging for protection fro…

This is where my position gets more nuanced. The default value should still be Lake Ontario, because that's what most of the world recognises it as. It's the most neutral name for it.

In general, I don't like that the world defaults to the Silicon Valley version of reality.

Re: Google: Lake Ontario/Lake America name change in the U.S. will appear in Maps

#83

Post by Pxtl »

nicbou wrote: post #82
Pxtl wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One kicker is how many sites leveraging Google Maps API in Canada are showing "Lake of America". I'm not sure if that's because they're proxying the Google Maps requests through a US server, or they're using an API call to specifically request the US version of the map. But either way, it's a pretty bad faux pas, especially for oligarchic telcos that wrap themselves in the flag when they're begging for protection fro…

This is where my position gets more nuanced. The default value should still be Lake Ontario, because that's what most of the world recognises it as. It's the most neutral name for it. In general, I don't like that the world defaults to the Silicon Valley version of reality.

I mean is it the API or is it the website provider's metadata? I don't know anything about the gmaps API. I would assume the default locale would be that of the requester, not US (but then I know MS has the "Invariant locale" which is often best-practice, which is de-facto US... not sure if Google has similar).

Re: Google: Lake Ontario/Lake America name change in the U.S. will appear in Maps

#84

Post by cosmicgadget »

Dig1t wrote: post #67
cosmicgadget wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independent from the other three branches of government.

Do we the people get to elect the people in this new branch of government? What recourse do we have if they stop serving our interests?

To be entirely honest, I haven't drafted the full text of the amendment. The key is having such an entity, the specifics of appointment and recall could follow any number of templates.

If it were me, agency commissioners elected by popular vote to a six year term, subject to recall by vote and impeachment by Congress. But that's orthogonal to the purpose of the branch.

Re: Google: Lake Ontario/Lake America name change in the U.S. will appear in Maps

#85

Post by tavavex »

nicbou wrote: post #68

I am Canadian. It is and it will stay Lake Ontario. I am mad at Google for a lot of things, but this is not one of them. A map should represent the current reality. Google Maps defaults to the user’s local reality, which seems reasonable to me. I worked at a mapping company and we had similar setups for contested borders. You would get the map that your government accepts. It was not the company’s prerogative to weig…

I'm also Canadian. The nuance here is that this is not an average contested border or naming issue that mapping companies rightfully treat very carefully. There is no actual dispute between two peoples or two nations, or anyone, on what this landmark is called. The 'dispute' is that one man decreed it and everyone else bowed in respect and whispered "Yes sir Mr. President". If he decreed that the new standard of calling other countries in the US was to prepend "Future American Territory of" to their names or that the word "ocean" was being changed to "big American water", Google would have the changes rolled out by the end of the day for Americans, and would show the glorious new name in parentheses for the rest of the world.

I argue that using 'rules' against an entity that knows no rules is futile. Everyone pretends that things are going swimmingly and that the rules-based world order is alive and well, that if we just use enough rules and never make difficult choices that go against them, the threat will eventually go away. This is partially what allowed it to happen in the first place. As it stands now, obeying these orders isn't neutrality, it's enabling.

Re: Google: Lake Ontario/Lake America name change in the U.S. will appear in Maps

#86

Post by dataflow »

pupppet wrote: post #47
dataflow wrote: post #29

Anyone else worried that the next president (even Democrat, if they manage to get one) may well let some of the name changes be?

They're not going to change a damn thing. I saw an interview with Newsom who was asked exactly that and he dodged answering.

Note that that might just be because he doesn't want to say something that might lose supporters, not because he would actually do nothing. (I'm not saying he would definitely do something, just that what he does or doesn't say about it right now doesn't indicate much.)

Re: Google: Lake Ontario/Lake America name change in the U.S. will appear in Maps

#87

Post by pupppet »

nicbou wrote: post #68

I am Canadian. It is and it will stay Lake Ontario. I am mad at Google for a lot of things, but this is not one of them. A map should represent the current reality. Google Maps defaults to the user’s local reality, which seems reasonable to me. I worked at a mapping company and we had similar setups for contested borders. You would get the map that your government accepts. It was not the company’s prerogative to weig…

Google can take months or YEARS to make updates but this one it makes almost immediately? Don't confuse this for anything but kissing the ring.

Re: Google: Lake Ontario/Lake America name change in the U.S. will appear in Maps

#88

Post by acoustics »

tavavex wrote: post #85
nicbou wrote: post #68

I am Canadian. It is and it will stay Lake Ontario. I am mad at Google for a lot of things, but this is not one of them. A map should represent the current reality. Google Maps defaults to the user’s local reality, which seems reasonable to me. I worked at a mapping company and we had similar setups for contested borders. You would get the map that your government accepts. It was not the company’s prerogative to weig…

I'm also Canadian. The nuance here is that this is not an average contested border or naming issue that mapping companies rightfully treat very carefully. There is no actual dispute between two peoples or two nations, or anyone, on what this landmark is called. The 'dispute' is that one man decreed it and everyone else bowed in respect and whispered "Yes sir Mr. President". If he decreed that the new standard of call…

What would be a valid basis for relabeling a shared body of water for US users?

Would it be based on popular usage? The procedure by which it changed? Maybe we distinguish between bicameralism and presentment, an executive order, and the discretion of a bureaucrat. Or do we normally take the government database at its word but treat this as a sui generis "this guy is being an asshole" exception?

Not trying to interrogate you specifically. I am pondering these questions myself. I don't like that the name changed but I'm hard pressed to think of a good neutral policy that doesn't also sweep up a bunch of (far stickier) renaming situations around the world.

Re: Google: Lake Ontario/Lake America name change in the U.S. will appear in Maps

#89

Post by acoustics »

pupppet wrote: post #87
nicbou wrote: post #68

I am Canadian. It is and it will stay Lake Ontario. I am mad at Google for a lot of things, but this is not one of them. A map should represent the current reality. Google Maps defaults to the user’s local reality, which seems reasonable to me. I worked at a mapping company and we had similar setups for contested borders. You would get the map that your government accepts. It was not the company’s prerogative to weig…

Google can take months or YEARS to make updates but this one it makes almost immediately? Don't confuse this for anything but kissing the ring.

Really? I thought Maps was pretty constistently up to date with GNIS changes.
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