Sending files to another would be easy if only the services that allow doing this - over WebRTC - didn’t sell out to sketchy advertisers constantly.
I have to look up which service is still good to use every time.
Internet centralization and the original sin of NAT
31–40 of 197 posts
Re: Internet centralization and the original sin of NAT
#32I remember times before NAT and SSL You could share things easily, sure, but anyone could get hacked pretty easily and very targetted. After NAT, sharing was still easy lots of 'piracy' apps, various messengers with NAT passthrough Both before and after you needed to be technical, you can't ask someone that doesnt know about computers to set up an FTP server, and if they did it would be a nightmare and they'd likely…
It brings the requirement for a firewall on every endpoint with a unique address. My Phone often has an ipv6 address (found out this holiday wen I couldn't resolve one of sites because of an orphan ipv6 entry nobody noticed), and has little problems. Perhaps there is also "firewalling" on the router and the phone can't even have incoming connections. Not sure. In any case, the phone seems to do fine.
> Perhaps there is also "firewalling" on the router and the phone can't even have incoming connections. Not sure.
Correct. Every home wifi router worth its salt will firewall incoming connections by default, whether v4 or v6. It's then possible (unless it's some shitty ISP-provided locked down device) to add specific allow rules, or allow all for a particular client.
egress is typically wide open, although sometimes they lock down particular protocols by default (eg. smtp, bittorrent)
Re: Internet centralization and the original sin of NAT
#33Calling NAT the original sin is a serious exaggeration. Carrier Grade NAT (CGNAT) is a truly evil concept that restricts the freedoms of the CGNATed users. But regular NAT is fine as long as you can control it. "No one wanting to bother with port forwarding" is largely a matter of shitty UX on the home gateway side and laziness on the side of the operator. Same with UPnP. If anything, NAT has saved millions of wildly…
> If anything, NAT has saved millions of wildly insecure devices running unpatched old Windows versions from getting pwned the second they connect to the open internet.
Its definitely the opposite. People started ignoring security because its "natted" anyways, even though NAT was never supposed to be security-critical. Thats what firewalls are for.
Re: Internet centralization and the original sin of NAT
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Anyway, we'll get the whole non-nat with IPv6, let's see what that brings I'll believe it when I see it. So far it doesn't look like IPv6 will win anytime soon.
Well, any 3G or later mobile backbone is SIP+SCTP over IPv6. So in many ways it won already
Weird, I used to remember that going to test-ipv6.com on my mobile (on 4G and 5G) used to fail all the tests. But today it passes.
Well, good to know!
Re: Internet centralization and the original sin of NAT
#35Calling NAT the original sin is a serious exaggeration. Carrier Grade NAT (CGNAT) is a truly evil concept that restricts the freedoms of the CGNATed users. But regular NAT is fine as long as you can control it. "No one wanting to bother with port forwarding" is largely a matter of shitty UX on the home gateway side and laziness on the side of the operator. Same with UPnP. If anything, NAT has saved millions of wildly…
Yeah NAT is still "every household gets a public IP address". This is a perfectly good foundation for an open Internet. You can still host servers in your home. I did this a lot as a kid and learned a ton from it. It's maybe not super elegant but it works.
Going to a model of "you don't get a public IP address, all traffic must go through servers other people host for you" is what finally kills the open Internet. It's okay enough for cell phones where it's a hack to work around TCP/IP's lack of roaming support, but it should be illegal to deploy as residential Internet.
Re: Internet centralization and the original sin of NAT
#36People have forgotten, or weren't alive, but NAT was created and deployed originally by users. The problem they were solving wasn't "how do we stop running out of addresses" but rather "how do we save money". That's because early ISPs had hit on the idea of charging more for more address space, as a way to differentiate between small and large customers. So you could buy a cheaper service with one IP and use NAT to get your whole organization online.
Re: Internet centralization and the original sin of NAT
#37Sending files to another would be easy if only the services that allow doing this - over WebRTC - didn’t sell out to sketchy advertisers constantly. I have to look up which service is still good to use every time.
That's because they're actually not "sending files to another". A hairpin service has to be provided for double NATed scenarios and a rendezvous service has to be provided for all cases. There's no magic about WebRTC that makes it actually p2p.
Re: Internet centralization and the original sin of NAT
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Not sure. In any case, the phone seems to do fine. That's mostly because a phone is very locked down, can you run an accessible ftp server on your phone? It's also not windows
For android, the answer is yes (without rooting being required).
> without rooting being required
If you want to use the standard port, that's only true as of very recently, though, see https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/218578943#comment17
Re: Internet centralization and the original sin of NAT
#39Related comment from another thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49454785 > Even more ironic is that NAT got normalized as a security feature — “your devices are hidden!” — which is one of the things that made people resist the thing that would fix it. That tracks. I briefly looked into the Tailscale website and I thought maybe I was wrong, maybe it's not a NAT/ddns toolchain, maybe it's something more comple…
I'm using tailscale to tunnel from an hetzner vm to my home, so that the vm can use my home connection for certain traffic. Traverses NAT and GNAT. It just works: connect devices and they immediately show up in their portal. Most config is just clicking, but more advanced things can be configured as well. Definitely feels like a high quality product, not just something thrown together by a developer that learned a fe…
>"that the vm can use my home connection for certain traffic. "
Huh. Why are you doing this, is the datacenter IP being (rightfully) blocked by some service to avoid abuse? Is your usecase breaking some services ToS?
Certainly adding more fire to the "never a GOOD reason to use this" thesis
Re: Internet centralization and the original sin of NAT
#40Related comment from another thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49454785 > Even more ironic is that NAT got normalized as a security feature — “your devices are hidden!” — which is one of the things that made people resist the thing that would fix it. That tracks. I briefly looked into the Tailscale website and I thought maybe I was wrong, maybe it's not a NAT/ddns toolchain, maybe it's something more comple…
I'm having trouble decoding this but Tailscale is a VPN that can traverse NAT when necessary. Arguably Tailscale wouldn't be needed if NAT didn't exist but considering the timeline I'm not going to declare a conflict of interest.
You are describing the product technically, but I find how it is used more important. Do you use it? What do you use it for? If empirically most users use it to host a server on a machine with firewalled IP, then that's more descriptive than its technical featureset as listed on the tin.