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Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

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Re: Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bubblewrap isn't a sandboxing architecture, so no. Go look at how Apple designed the macOS/iOS security system and you'll see that a Bubblewrap like tool is only. small portion of it.

Linux in-general is a small portion of the Darwin architecture. One is a monolithic kernel, the other has microkernel IPC security to consider. Are there any glaring limitations in Bubblewrap you'd like to point out, or are we having the Tannenbaum argument all over again?

The main thing Linux lacks is any notion of app identity more sophisticated than a file path.

On Darwin-based systems you can take a binary from anywhere. Downloaded into $HOME, found in /Applications, on a USB stick, network drive, app store run by Apple, app store run internal to your enterprise, doesn't matter. When you run it, the kernel computes an unforgeable identity for that program.

That identity is then used for all sorts of things. It's used to:

1. Stop other apps tampering with the app's files or address space.

2. Let users grant permissions to that app via normal UI interactions. Not just to files but for anything you see in the privacy section of Settings.

3. Allow the app to upgrade itself while keeping its permissions. This doesn't require the app to use any specific package manager or update mechanism, the kernel doesn't care.

4. Allow you to run multiple versions of the app, while keeping its permissions.

5. Block the app if it's malware and make the block actually stick i.e. polymorphic code doesn't help.

6. Do an ahead of time virus scan on Apple's servers, so you get the benefits of antivirus without needing to run resource piggy scanners locally that trash performance.

7. Give the app a private file space that's protected from all other apps, where it can store configs, caches and other sensitive files. So if someone does run malware, it's very limited in how much tampering it can do.

8. Nothing depends on escalating to root, or any admin user, at any point.

Linux has a much weaker system, it's nearly non-existent.

1. Programs are identified based on where their binaries are, not what their binaries are. This is totally wrong and creates a lot of problems, e.g. the same program run from $HOME vs /usr is perceived as being a totally different app by the OS.

2. Programs aren't run under bubblewrap by default in any distro I've heard of. Indeed they can't be because the kernel doesn't have any support for this.

3. Bubblewrap isn't integrated with ELF so there's no way for a binary to declare what permissions it needs. Contrast with: `codesign --display --entitlements :- /Applications/Microsoft\ Word.app | xmllint --format -` which tells you what permissions Word has when it runs.

4. Desktop environments struggle to implement the PowerBox pattern macOS relies on so much, because desktop APIs are too fragmented on Linux and most common apps ignore them in favour of rolling their own equivalents. So bubblewrap by itself can't make sandboxing transparent. FlatPak is trying to implement a PowerBox design with portals, but it's obviously a layer above Bubblewrap alone.

Re: Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

#522
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac users always like to defend some of the things Apple legitimately got right over most Linux distros, but always ignore that supply chain security and standard package management security on Apple (Homebrew) is akin to giving a bunch of internet randos root access to your machine with no oversight, vetting, or code review of any kind. At least most Linux distros do basic package signing. Someone even thinking it i…

Homebrew isn't standard package management on macOS. It's an aftermarket mod that Apple didn't have any design input to at all, and which largely imports the laissez-faire Linux approach to packaging to an OS that has a totally different design for native apps. > Someone even thinking it is reasonable to try to use a mac to manage production would be grounds for me to ensure they never have production access. It shou…

> It's an aftermarket mod

Unfortunately one I have never seen a MacOS production engineering guide that does not say "install brew" as like step one, exactly because Apple failed to provide a software suite sufficient to meet developer needs on par with that of major linux distributions. Macports is at least maintained by current/former apple employees and signs their packages, but in practice no one knows macports exists.

> I'd be extremely careful before allowing anyone to manage prod from anything other than a Mac.

I would never even consider letting anyone near production Linux servers if they are not comfortable enough to maintain and secure Linux on the computer in front of them.

> I think there's a business opportunity in fixing that.

Me too! I am in the current YC batch for exactly that reason with https://caution.co , built with https://stagex.tools.

Re: Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

#523

A few days ago someone found they were flowing USB descriptors straight into the shell. https://github.com/omacom/omarchy/commit/9285b19d6a72eba3df8... Don't use vibecoded distros. It doesn't matter whether they fix this or that, or whether you care about a particular vuln. This is not sensible. It's why you switched away from Windows in the first place, remember?

But, this “vulnerability” is the thing everybody knows about docker since forever. I always make my user part of the docker group, so my NixOS also has this, and any Ubuntu I’ve used over the past year. What is different here? Start a docker container with the docker socket mounted in the container and now you can have yourself mount / as rw. Everybody knows this. How is everybody so shocked here. Many instructions o…

> But, this “vulnerability” is the thing everybody knows about docker since forever

OP’s point exactly - it seemed somehow in their vibecoding workflow, they forgot to even do a human architectural sniff test for the stuff everyone knows. It reflects very negatively on them.

Re: Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

#524
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't understand why DHH is shipping so much bloat in omarchy. The better solution would be to ask if user wants to install bloatware during installation.

[flagged]

By doing open source and sharing his opinionated setup with other people ?

Re: Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its opposite. Windows and MacOS lacks proper sandboxing. While openbsd has pinsyscalls and linux has seccomp-bpf. Windows and MacOS only have filesystem and worse version of user namespace sandboxes, anything else and you need to write a kernel extension or rely on a hypervisor. > Unfortunately implementing an Apple style architecture on Linux would be very difficult. The apple apps kind of thing already exists and i…

Windows has virtualisation based sandboxing and NT has object-level security (albeit not often used correctly and granularly) and macOS has (among other things) SIP and a subsystem called sandbox that does exactly what it says: it sandboxes. It can sandbox in comparable namespace terms (like cgroups v1 or v2, but more in translocation style execution since it's a MAC framework) yet it also does it a much more fine-gr…

Windows has a brokered sandbox architecture too these days, but it's very new and nobody uses it.

Re: Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

#526
post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homebrew isn't standard package management on macOS. It's an aftermarket mod that Apple didn't have any design input to at all, and which largely imports the laissez-faire Linux approach to packaging to an OS that has a totally different design for native apps. > Someone even thinking it is reasonable to try to use a mac to manage production would be grounds for me to ensure they never have production access. It shou…

> It's an aftermarket mod Unfortunately one I have never seen a MacOS production engineering guide that does not say "install brew" as like step one, exactly because Apple failed to provide a software suite sufficient to meet developer needs on par with that of major linux distributions. Macports is at least maintained by current/former apple employees and signs their packages, but in practice no one knows macports e…

Ah, neat. I did something like Caution a few years ago but for Intel SGX, called Conclave. It made it much easier to deploy apps to enclaves, get remote attestations and communicate with them securely.

Unfortunately it's a difficult space to work in. SGX tries to remove the kernel and hardware from the TCB but there are a lot of obscure attacks to do with tampering with the enclave's sense of time. It's not an SGX problem, it's inherent to enclaves not having enough trusted hardware like signed clocks, tamper-resistant counters and so on.

Also the programming model has to be adapted but most customers just want a button to click for a box to tick, then they can say they're protected. Very few want to change their app architecture to be more secure.

Homebrew is far from ideal, indeed, but MacOS was never really marketed as an OS for people to manage remote server clusters. If you stick within their designed ecosystem and only do software dev for native Apple desktop/mobile apps using XCode, then you don't need homebrew.

Re: Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

#527

Omarchy has me questioning liking Rails because it just… straight up sucks? It comes preloaded with friggen ZOOM. I don’t think Windows bloat is that bad. If it makes people happy it makes people happy I guess. These guys trying it would be even more amazed at Fedora Workstation (“you can press windows and it shows all your open windows? That’s so much better”)

i don't understand why DHH is shipping so much bloat in omarchy. The better solution would be to ask if user wants to install bloatware during installation.

Have you used any of the popular distros? They all ship with loads of bloatware by default

Re: Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

#528
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is as widely known as you believe: I use dockerd via colima so it's not a limitation I've encountered - if I had, I likely would've switched to podman wholesale instead of compromising my system. Either way though, I would hope it's self-evident to most that taking glaring security holes in a single app (docker) & transforming them into glaring security holes in an entire OS is generally not desira…

Exposing the docker socket seems like such a rookie mistake to. There's a good reason we've known about docker socket proxies for a very long time. Also beside that they use ancient package alongside Archlinux. One of those being Chromium. It also used to use Chaotic AUR but now they just automate packages (every 6 hours) in their own repository without any maintainer intervention so it's still open for supply chain…

> rookie mistake

Unfortunately, it's hard to classify something as a "rookie mistake" when the developers behind the most revolutionary enterprise tech in the world have accepted it as "by design" & just put a hard-to-find disclaimer about it on one single page of their dense docs.

It certainly does help quell imposters syndrome whenever it creeps up on my though.

Re: Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

#529
post #394

My most controversial opinion by far in tech circles is that I still just use a standard Windows gaming PC as my home desktop. My current machine I just bought pre-built from Microcenter, complete with a 5090 and everything. I can fire up a Linux terminal with WezTerm and WSL2 at any point. It's customized and beautiful and totally fine. I have Codex running in one right now. I can listen to Dolby Atmos music through…

you have to understand that 90% of HN use macs and the only time they see windows is once every 5 years when a relative asks to setup a new or clean an infected one

Re: Omarchy: Any User Process Can Escalate to Root

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it always the people with the worst opinions who make the most stuff though? Why aren't the rest of us making popular stuff?

AFAIK, Fabrice Bellard has normal opinions.

Is there a place he shares them?
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