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'They shot all their weapons; they trashed their ships; they ran out of money'

theguardian.com

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Re: 'They shot all their weapons; they trashed their ships; they ran out of money'

#21

Post by tim333 »

OgsyedIE wrote: post #4
comrade1234 wrote: post #3

US government is stealing money payed by Switzerland for F-35s. Basically Switzerland bought 5 patriot batteries but the USA couldn't deliver so they cancelled payments. Then the USA took payment for the F-35s and applied that as patriot battery payments then came back and said "sorry our f-35 deal has to be renegotiated and you have to pay 2x the original deal". Switzerland lost about 1.3 billion francs - 1.5B$ - so…

The least terrible option under the circumstances. Any single European country going in either the pivot-to-armed-independence or pivot-to-alliance-with-China route without the rest of Europe buying in to the move is doomed to failure, even before you consider that a couple EU members are very in favour of the status quo.

There's probably a bit of a pivot to European suppliers rather than the US. The gear isn't quite as good but you don't have to worry about Trump issues.

Re: 'They shot all their weapons; they trashed their ships; they ran out of money'

#22

Post by ahartmetz »

Zigurd wrote: post #14
FloorEgg wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it's reasonable to say that since at least around the 1970s, on net, the people running the United States have been consistently trading power for greed?

Another really weird take. While George HW Bush was hardly a great president, he did manage to not fumble the liberation of Eastern Europe at the end of the Cold War. I think he's underappreciated.

Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Obama were OK, too. Clinton probably overrated, but not bad.

Re: 'They shot all their weapons; they trashed their ships; they ran out of money'

#24

Post by atmavatar »

FloorEgg wrote: post #20
Zigurd wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an odd take. The thing that's going to make China think twice would be good relations with Europe, and a joint willingness to isolate China if it comes to that. I don't know any politicians on the left or center who are hostile to Europe. China's relative advantage is like a club level tennis player: all you need to win is to make fewer dumb errors.

As an outsider with no loyalty to any US political party it looks to me like both sides are weakening US hegemony in entirely different ways and have been for a while now. It's also clear there are two distinct incompatible realities projected via the media, and the Americans who only expose themselves to one of the realities only judge, and therefore can't empathize, with the other. I'm sure that anyone who is e.g.…

> it looks to me like both sides are weakening US hegemony in entirely different ways and have been for a while now.

That's a pretty bold claim, especially insofar as it (perhaps unintentionally) sounds like you're claiming both parties have weakened the US to the same degree.

It wouldn't surprise me if you listed out some ways in which Democrat incompetence has hurt US soft power, since screwing up is kinda their thing. However, given what Trump has done in his two terms so far, it's a tough sell that the two parties are playing the same sport, let alone fall into the same league in terms of damage wrought. It sounds like a strong application of Murc's Law absent your actual list.

My insider's view is that the Republican party will burn my house down, while the Democrats will form a committee that concludes they cannot send a fire truck to put it out and they absolutely cannot hold the responsible Republican members accountable unless they can get bipartisan support. Both need to go, but I have no illusions that one isn't better than the other.

1. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=murc%27s+law

Re: 'They shot all their weapons; they trashed their ships; they ran out of money'

#25

Post by FloorEgg »

atmavatar wrote: post #24
FloorEgg wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider with no loyalty to any US political party it looks to me like both sides are weakening US hegemony in entirely different ways and have been for a while now. It's also clear there are two distinct incompatible realities projected via the media, and the Americans who only expose themselves to one of the realities only judge, and therefore can't empathize, with the other. I'm sure that anyone who is e.g.…

> it looks to me like both sides are weakening US hegemony in entirely different ways and have been for a while now. That's a pretty bold claim, especially insofar as it (perhaps unintentionally) sounds like you're claiming both parties have weakened the US to the same degree. It wouldn't surprise me if you listed out some ways in which Democrat incompetence has hurt US soft power, since screwing up is kinda their th…

I'm just one person in another country (outside the us) who is exposed to the information I'm exposed to. I have the benefit of sitting back, relatively unattached, and being curious about what is going on. I'm well aware that what I don't know far exceeds what I do know.

From speaking to my US friends who span several states and both parties, and are all intelligent, kind, and thoughtful people, it really seems like the US is being ripped apart - and people who are on one side or the other aren't really seeing the full picture, likely by design.

To what degree the leadership is involved in the ripping is really impossible for me to know. I look at one place and it looks one way, I look at another place and it looks another way, and the ways it looks are mostly incompatible with each other.

The one consistency I see no matter where I look is that we as in all of us living in western democracies are being divided, trust is being attacked and game theory lose-lose is being promoted. There are pockets of resistance, but the consistent theme is of dissolution.

So I may ask some question that comes off as weird, it's because I'm skeptical of whatever media says and asking questions I haven't heard anyone else ask - mostly just to poke at reality and see what happens.

Re: 'They shot all their weapons; they trashed their ships; they ran out of money'

#26

Post by FloorEgg »

Zigurd wrote: post #14
FloorEgg wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it's reasonable to say that since at least around the 1970s, on net, the people running the United States have been consistently trading power for greed?

Another really weird take. While George HW Bush was hardly a great president, he did manage to not fumble the liberation of Eastern Europe at the end of the Cold War. I think he's underappreciated.

He and his son appointed three of the supreme Court justices who ruled in favor of citizens United, which seems like a massive tradeoff of us hegemonic power for corporate greed to me...

When I said leadership, I didn't mean just the president, but all those with the most power and influence leading the country. Presidents, senators, Congress, supreme Court justices, Federal department heads, etc.

It seems like the things that made america powerful have been chipped away at over decades. Maybe it's just a lifecycle playing out and inevitable?

Re: 'They shot all their weapons; they trashed their ships; they ran out of money'

#27

Post by hulitu »

comrade1234 wrote: post #3

US government is stealing money payed by Switzerland for F-35s. Basically Switzerland bought 5 patriot batteries but the USA couldn't deliver so they cancelled payments. Then the USA took payment for the F-35s and applied that as patriot battery payments then came back and said "sorry our f-35 deal has to be renegotiated and you have to pay 2x the original deal". Switzerland lost about 1.3 billion francs - 1.5B$ - so…

And it feels good doing it. It is terribly funny to see European countries being so lame.

Hit me again, hit me hard.

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