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GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

ckardaris.com

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Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#531

Post by danaris »

burnte wrote: post #504
ChickeNES wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the company that popularized the mouse and GUIs, why are you shocked?

Because it's stupid. Why would accessibility features enabled by default on Windows and Linux be disabled by default in MacOS? There is literally zero advantage to disabling it, and it makes life harder on users. Same thing with tap to click. Once everyone else enabled tap to click Apple disabled it. They just HAVE to be different, even if it's bad for users, and that stubbornness is frustrating.

To a large extent, I believe it's a holdover from the earliest days of the Mac, when the mouse was brand-new, and many developers had to essentially be forced to even support it, let alone treat it as a first-class interface device.

I agree that it would be nice if Apple would have more keyboard navigation available by default now than they did then, but given that it is readily available for those who want it, I don't really see it as a huge issue.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#532

Post by danaris »

rhdunn wrote: post #374
NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's exactly what I'm saying basically everyone uses Excel. And basically everyone is a MOUSE-first user (or, even further along the chain: TOUCHSCREEN-first) keyboard-based menu navigation is not intuitive. it can be "poweruser" oriented, but it's not for most of the userbase

Keyboard shortcuts for those menu items are what most people will learn -- save, print, cut, copy, and paste will be the common ones that a lot of people will know. I'd be willing to bet that professional typists and people who spend the majority of their day typing (email, word, IDEs/text editors, etc.) are the ones who will know more keyboard shortcuts and navigation, especially for the things they do repeatedly.

> Keyboard shortcuts for those menu items are what most people will learn -- save, print, cut, copy, and paste will be the common ones that a lot of people will know.

I would say that it's true that the keyboard shortcuts for those items are the ones most likely for people to learn, but not true that most people will learn them.

I've spent 15 years in (tech support/programming for) academia, working with genuinely very smart people who use computers every day of their life, many of whom are actively looking for better ways to use those computers in their teaching and research, and 9/10 of them go to the Edit menu for Copy and Paste every. single. time.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#533

Post by fny »

prmoustache wrote: post #136
fny wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power user experience is not the same across disciplines either. God forbid I should ever be forced to use Blender or Inkscape with only buttons.

Why do you introduce the concept of being forced to in the conversation?

Accessibility != Keyboard

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#534

Post by DerekL »

mghackerlady wrote: post #517
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nor just shape, so a warning icon + text message.

and, as is being increasingly forgotten, SOUND QUES. Seriously, I get they can be annoying but they make navigating and interacting with things so much easier if you can't see them. Sure, TTS exists but is far more inefficient and objectively less helpful in these kinds of circumstances

*cues

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#535

Post by danaris »

lucumo wrote: post #402
the_lucifer wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not guaranteed but easy, because Windows has mnemonics, where you can associate arbitrarily nested menus with actions, and each menu can have its own mnemonic key, so that you press ALT, then, say, "k", then, maybe "m" and so on, following along with the menus as they drop down. > I'd even say friendlier than MacOS (heresy!!) Honestly, I disagree. If you've used macOS for a length of time, you might be aware of the…

> cmd+? i.e. cmd+shift+/ (...) Doesn't get simpler than that. That's a very two-handed ableist view. Imagine having lost your arm and being told hitting three keys on opposite ends of the keyboard is simple. I'm joking, but only about the calling you ableist and the emotional response parts. The situation does really occur. Keyboards aren't always the most accessible option. (Hotkeys reveal mental limitations in myse…

...What? Opposite ends?

The Shift key is right next to the / key.

The Command key is one key away.

Even on laptop keyboards.

I can trivially chord Cmd-Shift-/ with my right hand.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#536

Post by burnte »

dpark wrote: post #515
burnte wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's stupid. Why would accessibility features enabled by default on Windows and Linux be disabled by default in MacOS? There is literally zero advantage to disabling it, and it makes life harder on users. Same thing with tap to click. Once everyone else enabled tap to click Apple disabled it. They just HAVE to be different, even if it's bad for users, and that stubbornness is frustrating.

If you expect your users to mostly work with both mouse and keyboard, it can make sense. Dropping stuff from the tabbing order means that the stuff left is is quicker to tab through. I find it mostly annoying. Tap to click, though, that’s infuriating. I don’t know how people can stand it. I know people who insist they like it and then I see them accidentally “click” regularly and get annoyed by it.

No, keeping it disabled makes zero sense. There's no reason now to force people to enable it. Most people don't even know you can do it in windows so it's not like there's a huge problem for them. No reason not to leave it on here.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#537

Post by apothegm »

mhb wrote: post #501
apothegm wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention luggage. I find it hard to believe that it’s a coincidence that rolling luggage became common shortly after curb cuts and wheelchair ramps did.

Really? Both strollers and wheels on luggage are pretty nice to have even if you have to somehow negotiate curbs. So, I think it is a coincidence.

And yet strollers predate rolling luggage by over a century. (Even 2.5 centuries depending on which sources you trust.)

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#538

Post by mhb »

apothegm wrote: post #537
mhb wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Both strollers and wheels on luggage are pretty nice to have even if you have to somehow negotiate curbs. So, I think it is a coincidence.

And yet strollers predate rolling luggage by over a century. (Even 2.5 centuries depending on which sources you trust.)

The rolling luggage is primarily useful in the vicinity of airports. Inside airports there were no curbs. And I don't think people are going on long journeys through downtown areas with their luggage. I think you have a better argument asserting that rolling bags were facilitated by cheap polyurethane skate wheels.
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