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Brits would quite like their private messages to stay private

theregister.com

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Re: Brits would quite like their private messages to stay private

#71

Post by tux1968 »

bluebarbet wrote: post #57
HPsquared wrote: post #15

Generally speaking the more important an issue is, the less it is allowed to be affected by democratic processes. That's why Brexit was such a big upset, it bucked the trend (the management miscalculated, nobody expected the result and would not have put it to referendum otherwise).

This is conspiracism-adjacent, IMO. Plenty of consequential decisions have been put to referendums, if only because the political class may not want to take responsibility for them. And the outcome of a referendum is never certain. The more interesting difference is surely in how the elite responds to unexpected referendum results. Plenty of mainland Europeans assumed that Brexit would somehow be canceled (which was…

> British political culture sacralizes majorities.

I'm genuinely curious what you would offer as an alternative? Democracy should ignore the majority if it disagrees with the controlling cabal who hold the correct opinions?

Re: Brits would quite like their private messages to stay private

#72

Post by basisword »

DrBazza wrote: post #40
IndySun wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was virtually 50/50 and should not have proceeded. The bar to leave was set too low. 2/3rd better, and larger turnout should have been mandated. 16 year olds should have voted. The campaign to stay too weak. Mass confusion. Some particularly pernicious lies on the leave side too convincing. Brexit wasn't 100% going to happen, it was more like... Leave 17,410,742 51.89% Remain 16,141,241 48.11%

You could flip that argument. The bar set to remain was too low. As for 16 years old voting, I'd argue the age to vote should be raised to 21. > Some particularly pernicious lies on the leave side too convincing Both sides lied, both sides exaggerated. The referendum to simply leave or remain would never have happened if UK Parliament went to the public more often with referendums about various treaties such as Maast…

>> As for 16 years old voting, I'd argue the age to vote should be raised to 21.

Why? Brexit will impact 16 year olds for decades. A large number of the old farts who voted for it are dead now and won't have to suffer the consequences. If you're going to adjust voting ages but don't want to lower it, it makes sense that those over 75 don't get a say in something like Brexit.

And if your thought is that 16 year olds don't have the education yet to understand the implications of something so big, I'd say they're much better informed than most people over 60 who are consuming Facebook AI slop and believing it wholesale.

Re: Brits would quite like their private messages to stay private

#73

Post by MYEUHD »

madaxe_again wrote: post #68
badgersnake wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just don’t read past the headline and the headline usually involves paedophiles.

I mean, at what point do we say that wilfully refusing to absorb relevant information and then knowingly and willingly making a decision based on that lack of information is, indeed, their will?

This is called rational irrationality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_irrationality

Re: Brits would quite like their private messages to stay private

#74

Post by _puk »

IndySun wrote: post #24
HPsquared wrote: post #15

Generally speaking the more important an issue is, the less it is allowed to be affected by democratic processes. That's why Brexit was such a big upset, it bucked the trend (the management miscalculated, nobody expected the result and would not have put it to referendum otherwise).

It was virtually 50/50 and should not have proceeded. The bar to leave was set too low. 2/3rd better, and larger turnout should have been mandated. 16 year olds should have voted. The campaign to stay too weak. Mass confusion. Some particularly pernicious lies on the leave side too convincing. Brexit wasn't 100% going to happen, it was more like... Leave 17,410,742 51.89% Remain 16,141,241 48.11%

The failing was the one and done nature of it all.

The vote should have been, should we entertain this idea?

If yes, a second referendum on what Leave actually means when it comes to the final decision point.

Y'know the same way that any remotely functioning democracy would approach something this large and nebulous.

Iceland being just the most recent example.

Instead the vote was "life carries on as is" vs "something changes", with no clarity of what that change is.

Given the state of the UK post austerity there is no surprise the vote for "I don't want more of this" was so high.

That's the incredible failing of the UK democratic process here, Cameron foremost.

Re: Brits would quite like their private messages to stay private

#75

Post by ZenoArrow »

armchairhacker wrote: post #59
HPsquared wrote: post #15

Generally speaking the more important an issue is, the less it is allowed to be affected by democratic processes. That's why Brexit was such a big upset, it bucked the trend (the management miscalculated, nobody expected the result and would not have put it to referendum otherwise).

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all others that have been tried". If the people aren't capable of handling an issue, who is? Bureaucrats who are...elected democratically? Brexit's issue is that it can't be easily reversed, I don't understand why they don't just hold another referendum and undo everything.

> I don't understand why they don't just hold another referendum and undo everything.

I see you follow the EU model of democracy; keep putting matters up for a vote until you get the result you want.

Despite what you may have been led to believe, there's still a substantial number of British people that reject EU membership, and this goes beyond the "racist" and "economically illiterate" arguments that remainers typically fall back on. I would suggest you do what your predecessors did not and consider the consequences of losing.

Re: Brits would quite like their private messages to stay private

#76

Post by DarkUranium »

rsynnott wrote: post #51
xienze wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody expected the result and would not have put it to referendum otherwise I think you're right, you see this sometimes where the powers that be are extremely over-confident in themselves and think "sure, let's put this thing up for referendum and show those stupid right-wingers how unpopular they really are." Which works until it doesn't. A US example was Proposition 8 in California (banning same-sex marriage) i…

It's even a bit sillier than that. David Cameron promised a dumb thing to get elected, on the assumption that he'd be in another libdem coalition, and the libdems wouldn't allow it. Then he got a majority. And campaigned against his own dumb thing. Not only was it expected to fail at referendum, but the referendum itself was never really meant to happen. > What's shocking of course is that the Brexit vote didn't end…

Little did they know that the UK effectively already had Norway's status and then some, what with all the special privileges they were granted in the EU.

Re: Brits would quite like their private messages to stay private

#77

Post by tonyedgecombe »

danaris wrote: post #50
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then we'd have to hear the Brexiteers whining on and on about democracy. This way we get to see their project fail. I don't know which one is worse.

Hm, which is worse: An entire country of millions of people suffers from the shortsighted actions of a few with reduced quality of products, increased prices, worse access to other countries, and a host of other problems... ...or we have to listen to some people whine?

The winners are still whining anyway.

Re: Brits would quite like their private messages to stay private

#78

Post by HPsquared »

whateverboat wrote: post #61
danaris wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, which is worse: An entire country of millions of people suffers from the shortsighted actions of a few with reduced quality of products, increased prices, worse access to other countries, and a host of other problems... ...or we have to listen to some people whine?

> Hm, which is worse: An entire country of millions of people suffers from the shortsighted actions of a few Few? 51% is a few? I mean, I also think Brexit was a monumentally stupid decision, but 51% of people wanted it, no? Even assuming that everyone who didn't vote would have voted for remain, given the voter turnout of 71% (which is already very high for any election, typical turnout is around 57%), 35% of people…

What if 51% weakly want something and 49% strongly want the opposite?

Re: Brits would quite like their private messages to stay private

#79

Post by basilgohar »

madaxe_again wrote: post #68
badgersnake wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just don’t read past the headline and the headline usually involves paedophiles.

I mean, at what point do we say that wilfully refusing to absorb relevant information and then knowingly and willingly making a decision based on that lack of information is, indeed, their will?

I think this ignores the fact that there are very converted efforts to use well-researched methods to manipulate and mislead people at the ballotbox in favor of the vested interests.

The same interests also conspire to keep people preoccupied with basic needs and distractions that leave them with little time to properly research issues.

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