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California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

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Re: California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

#91

Post by johnnyanmac »

1718627440 wrote: post #58
roenxi wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good job, California lawmakers! Is this serious or sarcasm? They passed a horrible law, now its an internally contradictory horrible law because apparently it isn't important enough to consistently enforce. So, you know. Why legislate it? There isn't much of an angle here that reflects well on Californian lawmakers, they're still supporting this authoritarian trend of de-anonymisation and rolling back free communic…

> now its an internally contradictory horrible law because apparently it isn't important enough to consistently enforce Law is not an abstract code, but an incremental sometimes futile approach to shape society. They only want a way to hold big corporations accountable to exploiting children. They don't actually intend the effects on the consumer, so they tried to fix on easily changeable effect: "Don't worsen the pr…

> They only want a way to hold big corporations accountable to exploiting children.

Let me know when they pass actual laws tackling that, then. Even if this law was ironclad, this does not solve the simple factor of using a "verified" device.

You don't fix a problem of society from private corporations by restricting society. You need to actually attack the corporations itself. But governments are sheepish to go after "their own", or people who can bribe them into feeling like one of them.

It's not a great implementation either. But COPPA is an example in the right direction and made companies need to change their algorithms based on the user account's reported age. That's more of the direction to move in.

Re: California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

#92

Post by SahAssar »

w10-1 wrote: post #78
kennywinker wrote: post #59

> (2) “Operating system provider” does not mean a person or entity that distributes an operating system or application under license terms that permit a recipient to copy, redistribute, and modify the software. Where does MacOS and iOS fit then? The core of both those operating systems (darwin) is open source (APSL licensed).

> copy, redistribute, and modify the software I can copy and redistribute macOS binaries, and I can write programs/extensions that modify macOS. These vague terms show that legislators are incapable of regulating software effectively; but they do create an enduring legal franchise to deal with their confusion.

You cannot. The apple license has multiple restrictions on that prevent you from copying, modifying and redistribution, for example:

> No Reverse Engineering. You may not, and you agree not to or enable others to, copy (except as expressly permitted by this License or by the Usage Rules if they are applicable to you), decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, decrypt, modify, or create derivative works of the Apple Software or any services provided by the Apple Software or any part thereof (except as and only to the extent any foregoing restriction is prohibited by applicable law or by licensing terms governing use of Open-Sourced Components that may be included with the Apple Software).

From https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOSTahoe.pdf

Re: California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

#93

Post by kotaKat »

rgmerk wrote: post #30
kersplody wrote: post #5

Cool now let's exempt hobbyists from the 3-D printer must certify you are not printing gun parts pending legislation.

A quick search suggests that 3D-printed guns being used in crime is an actual, for-real, and growing problem. I take it that you wouldn't be OK with somebody building a uranium enrichment facility in their backyard for their hobby reactor. So there is a line to be drawn on where people's freedom to tinker ends; it's just a question of where you draw it. Personally, I think given there is an actual documented, non-iso…

Walk into Lowes and buy some steel pipe and a nail.

Congrats, you built a zipgun.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-63198715

There's now much more of a debate that's to be more sophisticated than "3D PRINTED GUNS BAD".

Re: California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

#94

Post by SahAssar »

kennywinker wrote: post #71
gmueckl wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MacOS isn't Darwin and comes under terms that do not fit rhe criteria of the exception. Apple actually did go to some lengths in the past to ensure that all layers of MacOS contained bits that they could claim restrictive licenses on. A project like PureDarwin, however, can be freely distributed because it omits Apple's proprietary parts.

Macos contains elements that are open licensed. Many linux distros contain elements that are closed source. Where is the line? This law describes as a true-false something that is not only true or false. This law is poorly written. Amending it didn’t fix that.

Basically all linux distros fully run without the closed source parts, they are only there to provide support for specific hardware. MacOS on the other hand cannot run at all without the closed source parts.

Re: California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

#95

Post by johnnyanmac »

andai wrote: post #77

I'm confused. If I was a kid, I can still get my cigarettes at the Linux store? (By analogy with eastern Europe where age checks are lax.) Or is the idea that the Linux store is not allowed to sell cigarettes anymore?

To use your metaphor, this is saying that a store needs to limit you to the kids section if it is told you are a kid at the door. The exemption here is because a park doesn't have doors to perform this check onto.

(PS. I'd hope we were past trying to hamfist physical metaphors to describe the digital landscape. But alas).

Re: California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

#96

Post by ErroneousBosh »

gmueckl wrote: post #72
rgmerk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick search suggests that 3D-printed guns being used in crime is an actual, for-real, and growing problem. I take it that you wouldn't be OK with somebody building a uranium enrichment facility in their backyard for their hobby reactor. So there is a line to be drawn on where people's freedom to tinker ends; it's just a question of where you draw it. Personally, I think given there is an actual documented, non-iso…

Then I missed the public discussion on why making it illegal to possess DIY guns is not enough. Did that actually get debated or just handwaved away? By the time I became aware of this whole technical blocking thing, that was the only proposal on the table.

Ah, I think I know this one. It's because people who make their own guns are nerds. You know, like you or I, except in a different topic. I remember reading a couple of posts on R*dd*t where two folk were discussing fitting accessories to guns and one posted something like "No, you can fit that, all you do is mill a slot on top of the receiver and drill and tap a hole at the end and you can just about screw this thing in place" kind of thing.

I read the discussion and thought "yeah that's nerd talk, just not about analogue synthesizers, old Landrover gearboxes, or Pascal compilers".

I guess the reason for blocking 3D printers from making gun parts is because it's easier than doing it "by hand". All you really need to do is get a copy of the files from someone who has them, print it out in something suitable, and you have viable gun components with very little "real work" involved.

By contrast here in the UK, where it's quite surprising what you're allowed to own and operate if you comply with the laws (here you're allowed fully automatic weapons, if you keep them at a suitable shooting range and don't try to wander around town with them, and you're not oh maybe a convicted violent criminal for example) one of my late father's friends was a gunsmith. My dad was an excellent machinist, and so he made some components for his friend, and I remember standing in the machine shop where they worked while he turned a chamber for a gun his colleague was building in the lathe. "There you go," he said, taking it out of the chuck, "that's legal".

Then he took it over to the mill, and cut a couple of holes and slots that would allow it to actually function as a chamber, "And there - now it's *illegal*."

Then, as he handed it to his friend, who was licensed to have "home made" gun parts, to stamp his initials on, "And now it's legal again."

Of course since people aren't allowed to just walk around with handguns since the school shooting, it's all a little more difficult - but the police will tell you what you need to do to keep it legal.

It's still slightly easier to get a shotgun licence than a motorcycle licence here.

Re: California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

#97

Post by jjav »

rfgplk wrote: post #84
russellbeattie wrote: post #45

Laws need to be managed like software: There should be a process for testing, user feedback, quick patches for bugs or conflicts, and regular updates to fix issues. If you think about it, both laws and software are called "code". The problem is our legal system is still based on the waterfall method. Lawmakers try to plan for everything, laws meant to solve one problem face feature creep and create a thousand others,…

It's also hilarious how poorly defined so many laws are. So many loopholes and bugs everywhere. Probably because most lawyers/politicians are effectively illiterate when it comes to logic.

> Probably because most lawyers/politicians are effectively illiterate when it comes to logic.

Unfortunately the “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" is completely wrong in politics. In politics and lawmaking, always attribute to malice, not stupidity.

Lawmakers appears extremely dumb on TV for the most part, but the teams behind them are actually very smart (pure evil, but smart). All the loopholes and bugs in laws are, to them, a feature. It allows them to always prosecute regular citizens, but the favored people (politicians, campaign contributors, oligarchs) always have a free pass. This is by design.

Re: California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

#98

Post by defrost »

cityofdelusion wrote: post #75
rgmerk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick search suggests that 3D-printed guns being used in crime is an actual, for-real, and growing problem. I take it that you wouldn't be OK with somebody building a uranium enrichment facility in their backyard for their hobby reactor. So there is a line to be drawn on where people's freedom to tinker ends; it's just a question of where you draw it. Personally, I think given there is an actual documented, non-iso…

3d printed guns are just a fancier pipe gun. Physics is the real enemy here. Make thing go fast out of tube is too simple of a design.

Still took a bit of effort and lateral thinking to hit 1,00,000 rounds per minute.

Re: California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

#99

Post by 15155 »

gmueckl wrote: post #72
rgmerk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick search suggests that 3D-printed guns being used in crime is an actual, for-real, and growing problem. I take it that you wouldn't be OK with somebody building a uranium enrichment facility in their backyard for their hobby reactor. So there is a line to be drawn on where people's freedom to tinker ends; it's just a question of where you draw it. Personally, I think given there is an actual documented, non-iso…

Then I missed the public discussion on why making it illegal to possess DIY guns is not enough. Did that actually get debated or just handwaved away? By the time I became aware of this whole technical blocking thing, that was the only proposal on the table.

> making it illegal to possess DIY guns is not enough.

This would be an unconstitutional law, per Bruen.

Re: California lawmakers unanimously pass Linux exemption from age-verification law

#100

Post by yyny »

rbbydotdev wrote: post #40

this bill fixes nothing. if you wanted to prevent harm from the internet you would start with proper privacy laws. but we all know why that will never happen

Privacy laws don't prevent foreign entities from influencing elections and making children addicted.
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