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The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

optimizedbyotto.com

81–90 of 96 posts

Re: The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

#81
I see the author has used the "it's just a tool" argument for "responsible LLM usage.

When you have an LLM ready-to-hand, what's possible and desirable is determined by the capabilities of the LLM.

https://deadsimpletech.com/blog/no-such-thing-as-just-a-tool

Re: The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

#82
post #3

I think this post (and the OSS projects that he mentions that ban AI) are very reactionary. > But the idea that AI has or will surpass humans any time soon in either capabilities or efficiency is simply not true AI is already better than most developers. I'm not sure what alternative reality people are remembering, but human coders for the most part have been really awful at writing code. I think the average PR from…

I generally agree with this. One of the strangest things about LLM driven engineering is holding two seemingly contradictory positions in your head: they’re both better than the median developer, and they’re also much worse at producing artifacts that are comprehensible to humans. I often find myself throwing away large amounts of LLM driven code not because it’s bad, but because it doesn’t fit within my attention sp…

> much worse at producing artifacts that are comprehensible to humans

This has always been the case. Just try making sense of the output of any assembler/compiler/transpiler. Why do we think differently about generated source code?

Re: The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with this. One of the strangest things about LLM driven engineering is holding two seemingly contradictory positions in your head: they’re both better than the median developer, and they’re also much worse at producing artifacts that are comprehensible to humans. I often find myself throwing away large amounts of LLM driven code not because it’s bad, but because it doesn’t fit within my attention sp…

> much worse at producing artifacts that are comprehensible to humans This has always been the case. Just try making sense of the output of any assembler/compiler/transpiler. Why do we think differently about generated source code?

I mean more in the psychological safety sense. An assembler's process is deterministic, not statistical, and knowing that affects how we interact with it.

Re: The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

#84

First, I don’t think it’s widely accepted financial markets are in an AI bubble or there is actually any evidence to support this, most market cap growth is supported by real earnings per share. It is debatable how long that will continue and if it is sustainable, but that isn’t a bubble it’s a cycle. Even the most skeptical investors to bubbles like Buffet and Burry, have large stakes in Google and Microsoft, front…

You can usually safely dismiss sentences that start with “It’s widely accepted that…” because if it were actually true, they wouldn’t need to hedge like that. The usual reason to start a sentence like that is when it isn’t as widely accepted as they claim, but they would like the reader to believe that it is. When something is widely accepted, you can just say it without the weasel words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

Re: The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

#85

I'm confused by the situation. I'm the last manual coder of my company, and am shipping projects faster than my colleagues who are spending fortunes in tokens. I was intrigued by the hype and gave a chance this week to codex+sol 5.6 and cc+opus 5. They cheated, lied, disobeyed, and shipped subtle bugs so often, it wasted more time that if I did it myself. Is half of the industry under AI psychosis right now ? Will mo…

Yes, it appears so, as you can see from your downvotes and the simplistic cheerleading further up this thread.

Re: The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

#86
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The robot overlords will put the last free man in a pod in 2080 and you guys will still be calling it Covid hiring correction huh

Your comment is a little overdramatic and lacks and grounding in reality. Lots of companies overhired, including mine, and we also had layoffs that were not a result of AI, it pre-dated anyone using AI at our company. But whatever, this pointless internet interaction is over .

I think the idea that most tech layoffs since 2021 are due to Covid overhiring is lacking a grounding in reality and really any evidence at all.

Re: The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

#87

Tangentially related, I'm starting to think LLM assisted coding will increase the jobs in software engineering. Think about it: code is cheap now. You'll have accountants realizing they can create scripts to automate their work flow, so they hack together something. These scripts will become the backbone of the accounting pipeline of a company. Now someone needs to productionalize and maintain these scripts, but the…

Exactly. I envision this future too. But we'll come back to a divide in what we call software engineering vs. software development as a whole lot becomes more trades level work outside of a few specialized areas. Frankly, it sounds appealing to be a clanker whisperer, part-time in my retirement doing the kinda work you mention. I started my career building those small business automation and loved it.

Re: The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

#88
post #3

I think this post (and the OSS projects that he mentions that ban AI) are very reactionary. > But the idea that AI has or will surpass humans any time soon in either capabilities or efficiency is simply not true AI is already better than most developers. I'm not sure what alternative reality people are remembering, but human coders for the most part have been really awful at writing code. I think the average PR from…

The best point Otto makes is how much time LLMs take off coding a fundamental starting point, but finding and removing edge cases still 100% requires humans to fix and find them.

Re: The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

#89
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is a little overdramatic and lacks and grounding in reality. Lots of companies overhired, including mine, and we also had layoffs that were not a result of AI, it pre-dated anyone using AI at our company. But whatever, this pointless internet interaction is over .

I think the idea that most tech layoffs since 2021 are due to Covid overhiring is lacking a grounding in reality and really any evidence at all.

https://www.linkedin.com/top-content/engineering/engineering...

There's quite a lot of evidence out there. Just because you're unwilling to accept it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I've provided strong evidence in the link above, anf=d there is a lot more out there if you actually wanted to look it up. It's your turn to provide evidence to support your claim. But I fully expect you to double down and not provide anything meaningful at all.

You're only here to troll so I'm not continuing this pointless internet interaction.

Re: The growing divide between AI hype and software engineering reality

#90
post #53
post #33

I really want to agree but the arguments he brings up make that extremely hard > Also, it seems that many don’t want to learn but instead expect to have all understanding outsourced to LLMs. Many seniors have noticed this and have stopped teaching juniors as the seniors don’t like the feeling of having their time wasted by teaching people who don’t want to learn. Or may be it is because now a junior dev is expected t…

> Yes, but I still prefer a nice tone. Like why should I change my manners just because it has no feelings? If anything the statistic predicts a friendlier answer when I say "please". Like you I generally prefer polite phrasings over rude ones, and I'm certainly not going to tell you how you should communicate to LLM models, however it's interesting to note that being somewhat rude and to the point seems to have some…

I know at least about the first paper. But I'm pretty sure that heavily depends on the model and I'm not sure how reproducible those studies were.

I for myself use the trick to ask the model, after I explained what it has to do, what it thinks about my proposal. Of course I have no scientific evidence but to me it feels as it prevents some misunderstandings and the model follows more correctly my intention.

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