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Hy4 preview

tencent.com

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Re: Hy4 preview

#61

Post by bredren »

codethief wrote: post #51

> Notably, Hy4 preview also contributed to its own development process, participating for the first time in the automated optimization of training methods, data strategies, evaluation frameworks, and low-level operators. The model proposed approaches, ran experiments, and iterated based on the results, with the resulting code, logs, and feedback feeding into subsequent rounds of exploration. This established an early…

If the distillation "attacks" created useful inputs to open weight models, ai-2027 was directionally correct that the Chinese would find ways to extract IP from western firms. (Scaled account creation and grinding outputs etc is not a dramatic story element as spies, though!)

Whether the distillation has constituted "attacks" or has or will meet the bar of "stealing" IP is not super interesting to me, though.

Re: Hy4 preview

#62

Post by minimaxir »

kurante wrote: post #59
simonw wrote: post #44

> [...] Let's maybe add a helmet? It could improve riding theme, but may obscure head. Maybe a small cycling cap or helmet? The user didn't ask; can add red helmet? Might be cute. But pelican with big beak; a helmet might obscure. Better maybe no. > Maybe add sunglasses? no. > Maybe add water? no. https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht...

Is the broken English an optimization or a byproduct of the model being developed in China?

Optimization. Why use many word when few word do trick?

Re: Hy4 preview

#63

Post by andai »

phyrex wrote: post #50
kakadu wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Nah, keep it up. I just come to the reviews for the pelican!

I think the pelican thing is a bit tired at this point, however I find Simon's comments to be high quality.

Re: Hy4 preview

#64

Post by acheong08 »

kurante wrote: post #59
simonw wrote: post #44

> [...] Let's maybe add a helmet? It could improve riding theme, but may obscure head. Maybe a small cycling cap or helmet? The user didn't ask; can add red helmet? Might be cute. But pelican with big beak; a helmet might obscure. Better maybe no. > Maybe add sunglasses? no. > Maybe add water? no. https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht...

Is the broken English an optimization or a byproduct of the model being developed in China?

When GPT-5.6-sol's reasoning traces were leaked, they also used "caveman speak". Definitely a token efficiency optimization

Re: Hy4 preview

#65

Post by Zigurd »

comex wrote: post #26
Zigurd wrote: post #17

Is anyone here working on a problem for which current generation LLMs are inadequate, but that could possibly be solved by the next release of a first tier LLM? Or is it like bicycles? Unless your problem is named Tadej, you don't need a $13,000 bike.

My experience is that even Opus 5 still tends to write buggy or low-quality code and makes serious mistakes when analyzing code. It's a lot better than before but still not something I trust. I've had less experience with Fable since I can't use it at work; I hear it's a step up but still has its limits. For large tasks like a web browser or a compiler, even expensive swarms of frontier LLMs have not been shown capab…

This reply is particularly interesting to me because most of my experience with actually using LLMs to get work done is with coding agents. But I only have a fairly narrow set of experiences: two pretty large solo Flutter projects. I am currently really pleased with Gemini as a coding agent. It could improve, but I think improvements are going to come from marginal gains in the harness and training material so it can catch things like misconfigured permissions in platform specific areas.

It's also interesting because, while coding agents are important and are a notable success, they are never going to be a multi trillion dollar business. And are there any other domains where LLMs have such a large impact?

Re: Hy4 preview

#66

Post by andai »

Bolwin wrote: post #46
dakolli wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Deepseek invented the paradigm of prompt caching, they are the SOTA when it comes these techniques. Despite them open sourcing all their research, nobody beats them. edit: I do wish openrouter would let you sort providers by Cache Hit % and Cache cost. These are the only things that matter to me at this point when choosing a provider.

Cache hit % on openrouter is not a good metric, it's mainly driven by openrouter's own provider juggling than the providers themselves

OpenRouter randomizes which provider gets your request by default right? I think you have to pass a specific provider in the request to prevent that. (Or set up a preset or something.)

This behavior makes it so you don't benefit much from the caching, unless you pin it to a single provider.

Re: Hy4 preview

#67

Post by vessenes »

kakadu wrote: post #48
simonw wrote: post #44

> [...] Let's maybe add a helmet? It could improve riding theme, but may obscure head. Maybe a small cycling cap or helmet? The user didn't ask; can add red helmet? Might be cute. But pelican with big beak; a helmet might obscure. Better maybe no. > Maybe add sunglasses? no. > Maybe add water? no. https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht...

[flagged]

Simon’s karma exceeds yours by about 1,300x — so most of us disagree with you. Like me, I disagree with you. I like the pelican benchmarking, and I like it when Simon stays on top of models for both public good reasons and because it saves me time and effort.

Re: Hy4 preview

#69

Post by andai »

dakolli wrote: post #47
minimaxir wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can click the table headers to sort Ascending/Descending.

You can sort by the cost cache cose, but you cannot by cache hit %. You have to click on the provider and see what their cache hit % is. A provider could have a super low cache cost, but a 50% cache hit percentage, making the cheap price of cache read's meaningless.

Wait, what does that number mean? I thought it always uses the cache price when the prefix matches.

Re: Hy4 preview

#70

Post by vessenes »

Zigurd wrote: post #17

Is anyone here working on a problem for which current generation LLMs are inadequate, but that could possibly be solved by the next release of a first tier LLM? Or is it like bicycles? Unless your problem is named Tadej, you don't need a $13,000 bike.

Yes. Most of us are, still. The frontier is currently both at expanding ‘common sense’ / non-cheating outcomes for imprecisely specified software (that’s all software), and at expanding autonomy - ability to work longer unsupervised with success, oh, and also at expanding outside contextual reasoning about what’s being built, as in “hmm, that doesn’t look right or make sense, let me explore that.”
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