Live data from Hacker News

DHS is using obscure law to snoop on journalists, non-profits, unions

theguardian.com

21–30 of 114 posts

Re: DHS is using obscure law to snoop on journalists, non-profits, unions

#21
post #17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since when were private companies part of the Judicial Branch? What part of GP's quote from the article gets you to "private companies are part of the judicial branch"? The judicial branch wasn't involved there, only the executive. All of us, private individuals or organizations, have the right to challenge any requests by the executive branch (and by the same token, unless forbidden by law we can also just volunta…

I get what you're saying, but "the company reviews each request for data it gets to ensure it is legal" just sounds like something a judge should do, no?

>but "the company reviews each request for data it gets to ensure it is legal" just sounds like something a judge should do, no?

No, unless you're arguing that the government should be barred from even making voluntary requests at all? I'm not sure I'd agree with that either though, there's plenty of times where a government request really is just an honest "request" for pure info, like a poll or survey or something on how a program is working and any feedback participants want to give. Though of course it's also easy to see how things like 3rd party doctrine have expanded in effect over time and gotten badly abused, particularly in combination with other levers government has. Perhaps that doctrine should be abolished and the government shouldn't be able to make "voluntary requests" for anything that'd touch on a criminal or civil investigation (so they'd still be able to ask for surveys and the like), but that'd require some careful consideration. Or maybe there are some reasonable limits in terms of data automatically and unavoidably collected (like cellular location) vs data voluntarily shared.

Regardless however, if the government wants to compel somebody to comply, well that's literally what a warrant (or court order) is for right? If the government chooses not to involve a judge in a request for data that'd require a warrant to force, then yeah of course the private party they're asking gets to decide whether to voluntarily go along with that or not. That's the trade.

Re: DHS is using obscure law to snoop on journalists, non-profits, unions

#23

> In several cases, the DHS has withdrawn a 1509 summons after it was challenged in court and before a judge could rule on its legality. That may be a deliberate strategy to avoid having a judge rule on the legality of the summons. They have a toy, they’re increasingly abusing it, then trying to dodge from it being taken away. The thing is nobody has to comply with 1509 summons, DHS has to go to court to enforce it.…

> The thing is nobody has to comply with 1509 summons, DHS has to go to court to enforce it. You're not wrong, but companies such as Google make business decisions, not moral decisions. It's far easier and cheaper for them to comply, while there is basically no incentive for them to fight the summons. Especially given the current administration's proven record of taking retaliation against anyone who stands in their…

Wouldn't the affected individual be able to sue the provider at least in some cases? From what I understand e.g. Stored Communications Act might allow suing T-Mobile in this case, at least if the individual isn't covered by binding arbitration. And possibly even government under 18 U.S.C. §2712.

Of course then it's up to judge to determine if the request was valid or not.

Re: DHS is using obscure law to snoop on journalists, non-profits, unions

#24
we went full authoritarian empire in less than a year

imagine two more years by 2028 what this nightmare is going to look like

even if the Dems get the Senate somehow it will barely slow them down

Bush admin was horrible with Iraq War and economy crashing but this is a whole new level of corruption

and I am starting to believe USPS is most definitely going to destroy voting by mail handing them the midterms anyway while supreme court slow-walks sorting it out if not making it 100x worse

Re: DHS is using obscure law to snoop on journalists, non-profits, unions

#26
Note that the DHS budget ($100bn) is sufficient to provide healthcare to every uninsured child, and about half (EDIT: a third) of what it would cost to provide universal healthcare to every American under 18 at the CMS average rate.

At the end of the day this sort of wastefulness eventually attracts attention.

Re: DHS is using obscure law to snoop on journalists, non-profits, unions

#27

> In several cases, the DHS has withdrawn a 1509 summons after it was challenged in court and before a judge could rule on its legality. That may be a deliberate strategy to avoid having a judge rule on the legality of the summons. They have a toy, they’re increasingly abusing it, then trying to dodge from it being taken away. The thing is nobody has to comply with 1509 summons, DHS has to go to court to enforce it.…

> They have a toy, they’re increasingly abusing it, then trying to dodge from it being taken away.

This isn't uncommon - this is how NY deals with any compelling case involving their infringing gun control statutes. If a defendant has money and no other meaningful charges, they tend to just dismiss and moot the issue rather than risk a finding of unconstitutionality.

Re: DHS is using obscure law to snoop on journalists, non-profits, unions

#28

> In several cases, the DHS has withdrawn a 1509 summons after it was challenged in court and before a judge could rule on its legality. That may be a deliberate strategy to avoid having a judge rule on the legality of the summons. They have a toy, they’re increasingly abusing it, then trying to dodge from it being taken away. The thing is nobody has to comply with 1509 summons, DHS has to go to court to enforce it.…

> The thing is nobody has to comply with 1509 summons, DHS has to go to court to enforce it. You're not wrong, but companies such as Google make business decisions, not moral decisions. It's far easier and cheaper for them to comply, while there is basically no incentive for them to fight the summons. Especially given the current administration's proven record of taking retaliation against anyone who stands in their…

> there is basically no incentive for them to fight the summons

Ehhh, seems to me a cloud provider that wants to back up my documents, communications, photos, passkeys etc has a very strong business case for ensuring the data is as safe with them as they would be in my own home.

Re: DHS is using obscure law to snoop on journalists, non-profits, unions

#29

Note that the DHS budget ($100bn) is sufficient to provide healthcare to every uninsured child, and about half (EDIT: a third) of what it would cost to provide universal healthcare to every American under 18 at the CMS average rate. At the end of the day this sort of wastefulness eventually attracts attention.

Medicare alone costs $1.21 Trillion, I find that extremely hard to believe.

Re: DHS is using obscure law to snoop on journalists, non-profits, unions

#30

> In several cases, the DHS has withdrawn a 1509 summons after it was challenged in court and before a judge could rule on its legality. That may be a deliberate strategy to avoid having a judge rule on the legality of the summons. They have a toy, they’re increasingly abusing it, then trying to dodge from it being taken away. The thing is nobody has to comply with 1509 summons, DHS has to go to court to enforce it.…

> The thing is nobody has to comply with 1509 summons, DHS has to go to court to enforce it. You're not wrong, but companies such as Google make business decisions, not moral decisions. It's far easier and cheaper for them to comply, while there is basically no incentive for them to fight the summons. Especially given the current administration's proven record of taking retaliation against anyone who stands in their…

The OP contradicts your theory:

"In Fort’s case, Google did not comply with the summons for any of the accounts. The company responded to the DHS by saying it had not offered evidence of how it was related to a customs investigation."

> companies such as Google make business decisions, not moral decisions

The world is more complicated than that; they make both kinds of decisions and many decisions aren't clearly in one basket or the other. Humans don't biologically change to amoral creatures when they pull into the office parking lot (despite theories to the contrary or attempts to encourage it), nor are they absolved of human responsibility when doing things for which they are paid.

Post reply on HN