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Debian votes to allow "responsible use of generative AI"

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Re: Debian votes to allow "responsible use of generative AI"

#321
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except LLMs actually are making programmers dumber. I personally know people, people whom I know for a fact were good programmers before, who have now completely stopped using their brains. When you ask them why they did something in the code, they say "I don't know, Claude did that and I didn't really question it". There was no such analogous phenomenon with IDEs.

> Except LLMs actually are making programmers dumber. And compilers made every software engineer worse at writing Assembly and better at skills higher up the stack. This will be no different.

I am pretty tired of this analogy because it does not hold up to scrutiny. The purpose of a programming language is to describe a logical routine in deterministic nonambiguous language. A program is a set of nonambiguous instructions. Heightening levels of abstraction traditionally did not result in less understanding of the program's high-level routine.

An example: 'read input from CLI, do this specific transform on it, send log with this text to external service, then output transformed data to CLI' is a program. Going up the abstraction levels from assembly to Ruby, you always know the "What" of the program, while you understand less of the "How" at each step. This is not the case with LLMs used in the common way. The problem with LLMs is that you no longer have a grasp of the "What", because you are not reading the code; you may have memorized the ambiguous English "What" that I wrote above, but that is not sufficient to understand the true behavior because English is not sufficient to represent it; it must be represented in a programming language. (What is 'read'? What is 'send'? What happens with errors?) By the time you have sufficiently represented the program in English to be nonambiguous, you've written more text than the code would have been, with just as much rigor.

So LLMs represent a fundamental difference to traditional abstractions: the user has lost the understanding of what is actually happening, because they are prompting ambiguously, and thus they cannot possibly have a grasp of the behavior, because the behavior is not defined in their prompt. In other words, they are programming in a new programming language that has a ton of undefined behavior that just randomly happens. No one could understand the What of their program when using such a language, unless they compiled it to a nonambiguous language and then understood that instead.

Of course it is possible to read and understand the code output by the LLM. It is even possible to build a whole knowledge graph in your head, as you traditionally would, and have a pretty full understanding of the whole thing. But, you are always doing this with the outputted code, not with the inputted prompts. The prompts are not analogous to a higher level of abstraction in this way; they are analogous to JIRA tickets. You don't have to read the assembly to understand your program, but you do have to read the LLM outputs.

The other issue is that the above paragraph's process of understanding is discouraged. The time taken to fully understand the outputs approaches the time it would have taken to write them yourself, so is very rarely done, and that increasing rarity of understanding is what we are concerned about. The programmers are moving from an understanding of the program into an understanding of the JIRA tickets that produced the program; they are becoming product managers. The thing is, currently you still need someone who understands the program beyond the level of a product manager in order to retain maintainability and quality. Maybe in the future you won't, but right now you do.

Re: Debian votes to allow "responsible use of generative AI"

#322
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a good project for a human to get human mentorship? Asking for a friend :)

https://stagex.tools Always happy to train up new packagers and maintainers.

This is the second time I've seen this project mentioned on HN. Their white paper is very interesting and aligns closely with my interests but I don't see much on the main site about how to get involved.

Are they using their Matrix server to filter out drive-by/low-effort contributions?

Re: Debian votes to allow "responsible use of generative AI"

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's a bizarre claim. Even better, I've literally taken some of the crappy experimental projects from the pre-Opus 4.6 era, and turned them into real software as models have become smarter.

It's crazy picking up a project that took me days of frustration pre-AI and just adding features like it's nothing.

Or being able to get down something that you've had in your mind for 20+ years but could never quite get down into a real working thing.

Re: Debian votes to allow "responsible use of generative AI"

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, that's fair. Problem so far has been when poor developers send massive volume of slop for review. Takes time and effort to review or at least glance and test it, especially if developer hasn't bothered.

that seems like two separate problems. too many patches from unknown and untrusted contributors is a triage problem - telling a known and trusted contributor they can't use AI to help work on something just because other people are sending slop for review is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

More like throwing the bathwater out with the baby.

Re: Debian votes to allow "responsible use of generative AI"

#326

The voting seems to have been pretty much linear to how pro-LLM they were. So it's interesting that all of the proposals were essentially anti-LLM and the chosen one was the mostly neutral, only slightly anti-LLM one. The absence of any pro-LLM proposal indicated that proposal writers are not in sync with the voters

The voters here are people active on the mailing list, not general users of Debian or LLM automated PR contributors.

Re: Debian votes to allow "responsible use of generative AI"

#327

New policy boils down to "AI or not, it's still your code and you're responsible for it". I can get on board with that.

What does this responsibility mean in practice? Like what are the actual real consequences if it turns out your code is bad or whatever? I assume you get banned from contributing? I couldn’t immediately find any more information on what this all means in practice

[deleted]

Re: Debian votes to allow "responsible use of generative AI"

#328
post #282
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... hysterical ... quasi-religiously ... I'm beginning to wonder if it might be the case that when my fellow citizens begin to act insane - might it be the result of foreign propaganda.

It would be in foreign interest, yes. But all of this is no different from 50 years of the environmentalist movement. The snail darter was an invented species decades ago. So if it’s propaganda, it’s not invented so much as amplifying what we invented here.

Look to see who profits.

Re: Debian votes to allow "responsible use of generative AI"

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debian is open source, there is no incentive to be "responsible for it", oh poor me, someone got a bug. If it's paid for through a job your argument is sound.

Basically what you’re saying is that anything that exists outside of capitalist incentive structures isn’t allowed to have standards. When I am at home practicing my musical instrument or learning to paint, those aren’t paid activities, so I can’t demand high standards for myself. When Habitat for Humanity is looking for volunteers to do electrical and plumbing on homes, they have to allow unlicensed random folks do…

you naive idealist

Re: Debian votes to allow "responsible use of generative AI"

#330
post #309

New policy boils down to "AI or not, it's still your code and you're responsible for it". I can get on board with that.

Exactly the sort of thing I agree with. If there's code, ultimately, some human is responsible for it, regardless of whether they produced it by hand, by AI, or by rolling dice. (Not that anyone does produce code by rolling dice, mind! Or, if they do, I really don't want to see the results...) All project contributions must be submitted by *identifiable human participants* who accept full responsibility for their con…

Using LLMs is basically rolling a huge number of weighted dice.
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