Live data from Hacker News

Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

vectorian.be

81–90 of 97 posts

Re: Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

#81
post #53

You can’t discuss kings without discussing the rich history of Europe with thousands of years of oral and written history long predating the Sumerians and even the ancient Proto Indo-European peoples to which European language and culture is often erroneously attributed. The dark ages were anything but dark. Ancient Europe was anything but primitive. And yet it’s so rarely discussed in the mainstream.

> The dark ages were anything but dark The period is only called dark age in English for what it’s worth, that should make it pretty obvious it’s not a universal understanding of that era

AFAIK it's called Middle Ages. "Dark ages" is a nickname, it exists in Portuguese too, at least, and yes it reflects obsolete notions about that moment in history.

Re: Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

#82
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely explanation is we're misreading some antique number system. Our interpretation of Sumerian numbering is tentative at best. The major indicator for accuracy was that early on a few different scholars converged on the same translation for the same tablets so we trust we got it right. The mathematical and astronomical tablet texts we have of Mesopotamia, where we understand the numbering very well, are much…

There is a table of squares from ≈2500 BC https://cdli.earth/artifacts/10678 that predates the earliest known copies of the Sumerian King List by a few centuries. With completely wrong values for the numerals, the math wouldn't add up: https://saalck.pressbooks.pub/mathhistory/chapter/vat-12593/ And many later kings on the list, in particular ones where we have independent evidence from inscriptions produced during t…

> And at one point the list produces a subtotal of "24510 years, 3 months, and 3 1/2 days" for the 23 kings of the first dynasty of Kish, so the durations are hardly meant to be just some vague large number.

Note that the odd precision is due to just a single entry. Remove that entry, and pretty much all of the old entries are either perfect squares or nicely round numbers in their numeral system.

Re: Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

#83
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely explanation is we're misreading some antique number system. Our interpretation of Sumerian numbering is tentative at best. The major indicator for accuracy was that early on a few different scholars converged on the same translation for the same tablets so we trust we got it right. The mathematical and astronomical tablet texts we have of Mesopotamia, where we understand the numbering very well, are much…

The most likely explanation is that we are treating the list too literally. This list is at least 4000 years old and we do not have the cultural context to understand what it's intent was

Yes this is a more concise and less informative version of what I said. I thought my perspective would be interesting since I held 4000 year old tablets in my hands and studied with Assyriologists at the top of the field but what do I know?

Re: Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

#84
post #76

This is pseudoscientific AI slop. Pangram is scoring it as 100% AI written. Modern humans originated 300kya, so the idea that oral to written culture could date back 240k years is absurd. Checking to see if these dates correspond to climatic events only makes sense if the texts imply that. However, this list does not mention climatic events for these kings records. The only climatic event it does mention is the great…

…if you actually looked at the article, you would have seen that the answer was a resounding “no”.

Re: Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

#85
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely explanation is we're misreading some antique number system. Our interpretation of Sumerian numbering is tentative at best. The major indicator for accuracy was that early on a few different scholars converged on the same translation for the same tablets so we trust we got it right. The mathematical and astronomical tablet texts we have of Mesopotamia, where we understand the numbering very well, are much…

There is a table of squares from ≈2500 BC https://cdli.earth/artifacts/10678 that predates the earliest known copies of the Sumerian King List by a few centuries. With completely wrong values for the numerals, the math wouldn't add up: https://saalck.pressbooks.pub/mathhistory/chapter/vat-12593/ And many later kings on the list, in particular ones where we have independent evidence from inscriptions produced during t…

I'm sorry I expressed myself a bit poorly. I don't mean to say we don't know how to read the numbers. I mean we might be reading as a literal numeral something that was meant to be read in a slightly or completely different way.

There's always the possibility that it is just some mythology without deeper meaning, that it represents garbled memories from pre-literary times. It might be encoding something we don't understand or just collectively misremembered stories or even just gibberish that came to be seen as significant purely by tradition or repetition.

We don't really know all that much about these peoples who lived at the early stages of our current post glacial stage of human society. We have a lot of data, to be sure, but very little in the way of a coherent interpretation for it all. In fact, the vast majority of the cuneiform tablets that have been digged up haven't even been examined properly yet, as in transcribed, translated and analyzed.

We have a few glimpses of the culture of Sumerian and some of it is this odd lists of names and numbers. I mean, even calling them "kings" is anachronistically projecting a very recent concept of Medieval Europe into a past at least 3 times as distant from as as the very earliest tribal leaders that came to be termed 'kings'. One common title used translated as 'king' (I am not sure it is written in these name lists) is lu-gal. It means 'big man', or magnate.

Hell, Sumerian is a language isolate. We interpret it largely based on context from later vocabulary borrowed by Semitic languages such as Akkadian and more recent descendants in Assyrian, Aramaic, Hebrew, Arabic and so on... Studying ancient Sumer and ancient Egypt is very very close to studying alien societies. We share very little with them other then happening to inhabit the same planet. We only understand Egyptian writing because some stone inscription had the same text in common late antiquity Greek, and ancient Egyptian written in hieroglyphics, and a script believed to be its more 'cursive' form.

Re: Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

#86
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely explanation is we're misreading some antique number system. Our interpretation of Sumerian numbering is tentative at best. The major indicator for accuracy was that early on a few different scholars converged on the same translation for the same tablets so we trust we got it right. The mathematical and astronomical tablet texts we have of Mesopotamia, where we understand the numbering very well, are much…

The most likely explanation is that we are treating the list too literally. This list is at least 4000 years old and we do not have the cultural context to understand what it's intent was

So funny thing, I just learned about the king list yesterday. The king list was compiled during the Akkadian restoration of Sumer. It is believed that the king list was compiled in order to provide a through line from ancient Sumerian rulers to the (at the time) contemporary Akkadian-origin king.

Re: Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

#87

The idea that a list of kings from 4000 years ago would encodé global climate events for over 240.000 years is completely ludicrous. Astrology has a better grounding on reality than this idea. And the fact that all lengths are multiple of 600, is even more telling knowing that they counted in base 60

current kings live very long lives due to the stability in their environment... not what used to happen in the middle ages for instance

It sometimes happened:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II

Re: Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

#88
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most likely explanation is that we are treating the list too literally. This list is at least 4000 years old and we do not have the cultural context to understand what it's intent was

So funny thing, I just learned about the king list yesterday. The king list was compiled during the Akkadian restoration of Sumer. It is believed that the king list was compiled in order to provide a through line from ancient Sumerian rulers to the (at the time) contemporary Akkadian-origin king.

The oldest 'sumerian king list' tablets found date from the Sumerian 'restoration' after Akkad, not 'Akkadian restoration'

From what we gather, around 2300/2200 BCE the very first territorial empire known, the Akkadian empire rose and then fell. There's a great book about it called "The Age of Agade". Enheduanna, thought to be a daughter of one of the Akkadian rulers, is one of the oldest authors known! She is thought to have authored some poetry we've found from back then. After the Akkadian territorial polity fell, southern Mesopotamia fragmented into city states and that is when these 'king list' tablets are thought to date from.

Re: Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

#89
post #53

You can’t discuss kings without discussing the rich history of Europe with thousands of years of oral and written history long predating the Sumerians and even the ancient Proto Indo-European peoples to which European language and culture is often erroneously attributed. The dark ages were anything but dark. Ancient Europe was anything but primitive. And yet it’s so rarely discussed in the mainstream.

> The dark ages were anything but dark The period is only called dark age in English for what it’s worth, that should make it pretty obvious it’s not a universal understanding of that era

It deserves to be called that.

After the fall of the Roman empire primitive religion came to rule Europe. The science the Greeks gave Europe were lost or stagnated, and literacy was almost exclusively the domain of the church. Europe regressed, while the Islamic world preserved the Greek science texts and China thrived (inventing gunpowder and money to start with).

Everything is named by comparison, and we compare that age to the age of enlightenment. I don't care how unpopular it is to say it out loud, it's the literal, provable, and easily verified truth that Europe during that time was an age of intellectual darkness.

Re: Does the Sumerian King List Align with Paleoclimate Events?

#90
post #79
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fun ... a no tech version Which means, surely, "no tech" and "no current impactful world". You would lose that sight from a community largely trained on hard facts ("works/doesnotwork") and creation, invention, management, on real grounds. "Intellectual curiosity" as a "bubble", as an escape into a closed reality, is not a good thing. "Oh, the colours of nature in its taxologies!". And meanwhile maybe the world tha…

Go one level up and you're talking about HN as it is echewing anything "political" for the same reason (politics is mainstream and doesn't satisfy intellectual curiosity.) But it isn't any more grounded in "reality" to discuss the taxonomy of programming languages than birds or Sumerian kings. All of it is an escape from reality. None of it is discussing children getting blown up in Gaza, or famine in Sudan, or what…

There is a difference between "trying to discourage what stimulates gut-talk in a part of the population" and refusing it as a legitimate topic. Already if we can reason about it it is intellectually interesting; if it has non evident roots and outcomes it is intellectually interesting.

And there are reasons why what will concern us directly is important to be notified and discussed to be clarified.

Post reply on HN