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GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

ckardaris.com

271–280 of 510 posts

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#271

Power user experience is not the same thing as user experience in general. If you want to make the argument that all developer tooling should be keyboard-driven, fine, be my guest. But most people aren't willing to deal with the learning curve of keyboard-driven GUIs, and that's okay. We shouldn't force it. HN's insistence on acting like all users are Arch Linux efficiency perfectionist hacker types is painfully corn…

It really is not so much about keyboard vs. mouse - power users vs. average Joes. That all is just a discombobulation that distracts from the main issue and the issue is the accessibility of plain text.

Majority of computer professionals (programmers included) come to appreciate a single fundamental truth about their field way too late into their careers. That the most basic foundational unit, the substrate they need to conquer is text. Everything stems from it. We have to deal with text our entire lives. It doesn't matter where that text appears - in web browsers, in Jira, in Slack, in terminal, in PDFs, Word or LaTeX documents. Code by the way is just structured text. The feeling of empowerment and liberation when you can deal with text on your own terms is a disproportionate multiplier. That's why using multiple cursors feature for the first time feels so amazing, even though the practical cases for it are not that common.

And when I say "text", I don't only describe the process of "grabbing some text" and "piping it" into another process, or manipulating it. It's not only about the input, the act of consuming text is equally, if not more important.

We argue that keyboard-driven UIs are more efficient for the input, but hundreds of memorized shortcuts can't really fix the fundamental problem.

Vendors are designed to own you and ownership can take different forms. Slack app that doesn't let you easily extract code snippets from a thread - owns you. Jira that forces you to use their stupid, quirky wysiwyg editor - owns you. Note-taking app that keeps the data on the cloud ain't your friend. The friction is the ownership. When extraction of text requires effort, the tool has leverage over you. It's a subtler form than data lock-in, it is behavioral lock-in. You adapt your workflow to what the tool makes easy, and gradually the tool's affordances shape what you even think to do. Information gets buried in threads, search is mediocre, export is hostile. The "solution" they offer is to stay there longer - search in Slack, link to Slack, screenshare in Slack, summarize with AI in Slack, don't ever leave Slack. The tool becomes the answer to the problems the tool creates.

And when you get to that point, you'd feel helpless - all your knowledge and muscle memory can't help you there - not only the app is not favoring power-user experience, it's forcing everyone downgrade to the "average Joe" levels.

Most popular editors and IDEs don't give you direct leverage over plain text either, at least not without the effort from your side. Shortcuts, popups, UI elements in the IDE at best are local drivers - you can't easily grab a thing from the outside and feed it to your LLM context in the middle of a task, or insert within a comment in the code - you have to switch, copy, paste, deal with format inconsistencies, manual conversion, etc. Then we keep bargaining what method is the best, fastest and most convenient - using the mouse or keeping the fingers on the home row, modality or complex shortcuts. All for the sake of the problem that's artificially enforced on our workflows.

Terminal-heavy users eventually start appreciating the leverage Unix philosophy grants them over text, but that's still contained within locality, they still have to constantly jump around, while eventually figuring out ways for automating some aspects of it.

Point is - do not give in to the status quo. Liberate your text - deal with it on your terms. Get annoyed whenever you need to switch back and forth just for the sake of finding the piece you need and moving it around - it should be instantaneous and instinctual. Like a boxer moving in a ring and casually throwing heavy punches. Long-time Vim and Emacs users "get it", even though they often don't follow through - some things just never become gratifying instincts. Sometimes, even the opposite forms - like redundant muscle memories. Some outright would reject using a new app because it messes with one shortcut they keep accidentally pressing. Sometimes, I wish there was an agreed standard for every UI - to have only the core, commonly used keys pre-set, while making everything else configurable.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#272
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people outside of enterprise have no idea the cost to audit and fix a massive website. The law is a forcing function here. Lawsuits can and do happen when sites of a certain size fail to implement government-mandated laws. This is a good thing, IMO, but it only comes into force in the largest cases. If there is a credible path to 1/10th the cost (while still providing liability insurance which is a critical p…

I'm not outside of enterprise and have worked hands-on for over a decade with AI-driven customer workflows. The cost of accessibility audits are NOT higher than AI R&D or third-party B2B contracts for vaporware touting to do the same. Sorry if that assertion stands opposed to your value prop.

The state of affairs in the last 6 months bears almost no resemblance to the state of affairs in the last decade.

No need to apologize, neither of us can predict the future. I am optimistic Fable-level models can succeed where the old not-actually-AI models failed. No shame in being pessimistic about the same.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#273

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

I worked on Microsoft’s Windows QA team long ago. My team used to have “No-mouse Tuesdays”: you were supposed to do all your normal work but only using the keyboard.

[dead]

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#274
post #259
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MacOS has intentional holes in keyboard support. You have to go into settings and turn on a config for keyboard navigation to reach all elements. Apple intends for most users to navigate with a mouse. It’s in the accessibility settings. https://support.apple.com/en-za/guide/mac-help/mchlc06d1059/...

I cannot think of a single reason these would be disabled by default other than Apple stubbornness.

This is the company that popularized the mouse and GUIs, why are you shocked?

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#275

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

I believe AI can be huge here. Things like ADA are often mechanical (adding the correct attributes to the most important page elements). It is the perfect work to audit and fix using agents. It is a business opportunity as well. I worked at a company that paid for an audit before LLMs. There is tremendous cost savings possible here. I also wonder if WebMCP will be the ultimate final incarnation of this.

> It is a business opportunity as well. I worked at a company that paid for an audit before LLMs. There is tremendous cost savings possible here.

Do you know one of the most underemployed groups are disabled people? And do you know where a number of disabled people get employment? Disability audits (unsurprisingly they're extremely good at this).

Congratulations on recommending further marginalising an extremely marginalised group.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#277

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

In the context of discussing TUI vs GUI (as the article does), the accessibility and keyboard control balance probably swings very strongly to native GUIs; in a TUI you’re at the whim of the TUI framework’s stabs at accessibility support, while on a full fledged native UI you have all the bells and whistles of focus management and text to speech and voice control and high contrast and magnification and motion adjustments…

The idea that it must be more accessible because it’s confined to a mono space typeface and communicates state mostly by changing the foreground and background color of the text it renders makes no sense to me.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#278

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

I'm able. I have no idea or wish to go cosplay as my mental model of someone having to use tools to access my website. I use accessibility tests that make sure content has readable colors. I set a content anchor so people can navigate without sight. I would really like to learn about any frameworks that can help me make my websites accesible to everyone. If there a gold standard?

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe AI can be huge here. Things like ADA are often mechanical (adding the correct attributes to the most important page elements). It is the perfect work to audit and fix using agents. It is a business opportunity as well. I worked at a company that paid for an audit before LLMs. There is tremendous cost savings possible here. I also wonder if WebMCP will be the ultimate final incarnation of this.

> It is a business opportunity as well. I worked at a company that paid for an audit before LLMs. There is tremendous cost savings possible here. Do you know one of the most underemployed groups are disabled people? And do you know where a number of disabled people get employment? Disability audits (unsurprisingly they're extremely good at this). Congratulations on recommending further marginalising an extremely marg…

I suppose it is a question of balance between: the entire web being better for all those that require accessibility vs. a subsection of that community holding their jobs. And it raises the possibility that the increased accessibility could lead to more job opportunities.

But I'm not really a consequentialist and think of things in virtue ethics terms. And using technology to scale benefits to a wider group of people doesn't conflict for me. YMMV.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy is about access No, not really. I know what you are trying to say, and I fully agree. We need to stop using "democracy" or "democratizing". Democracy, in it's purest form, is about mob rule --majority rule, if you want to say it in a softer/kinder way. "Democratizing" means giving a mob control of the thing, it does not mean making it accessible to all at all.

Democracy is not about mob rule, it's about a dialog. Sure, sometimes it becomes heated argumentation and noise, but it's not so much about "ruling". Lincoln in his union address in 1860 said: "I so adopt it because it furnishes a precise and an agreed starting point for a discussion between Republicans and that wing of the Democracy headed by Senator Douglas." "Democratization" in a sense is about making things acce…

> Democracy is not about mob rule, it's about a dialog.

No my friend, Democracy is majority rule, which easily turns into a ruling mob. It has nothing whatsoever to do with dialog.

Also, your quote of Lincoln's address is taken completely out of context. He was talking about his opposition of the ideas of a faction of Democrats who were in favor of slavery and his support of the majority of Republicans who believed slavery was a moral, social, and political evil.

In other words, take the time to at least do some research before you try to use quotes in support of a failed conclusion.

Did you read the Greeks in school? Probably not. I recommend Plato's Republic. Both he and Socrates talked about the flaws of direct/pure democracy that would usually make it degenerate into mob rule.

In Republic Plato developed a hierarchy:

  Aristocracy: Rule by the wise (my comment: a fantasy)
  Timocracy: Rule by the honorable (my comment: another fantasy)
  Oligarchy: Rule by the rich (my comment: a reality in many societies)
  Democracy: Rule by the masses (my comment: glad we don't have this)
  Tyranny: Rule by a despot (my comment: plenty of examples of this in history)
It took until the late 1700's for the idea of a representative democracy to actually take hold, with Alexander Hamilton being credited with the terminology.

So, "democratizing" means letting the masses have their way. It does not mean making things accessible to everyone, which is the hilariously or tragically ignorant way in which Silicon Valley tries to use the term. You see startups all the time say "we are democratizing ". Just how stupid are these people? They are saying we are going to let the mob have access and benefit from not making it available to everyone.

In the context of Plato’s political philosophy the modern, casual use of the word "democratizing" completely ignores the historical and philosophical baggage of the root word democracy.

The irony is that modern society uses "democratize" as an undisputed positive term (meaning liberation and fairness), while the very philosophers who birthed western political thought used "democracy" as a warning label for instability and lawlessness.

A better term for what startups want to say would be "commoditizing": turning a specialized, elite resource into a public good or a widely available commodity; not "democratizing", which is an ignorant use of a term that means almost exactly the opposite.

I guess classical education has not been a part of schooling for quite some time. As a kid I did not necessarily enjoy reading the Great Books. As an adult, I can see how much damage has been caused by the abandonment of such valuable teachings.

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