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GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

ckardaris.com

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Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#251

Post by iLemming »

robomartin wrote: post #245
rootedbox wrote: post #152

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

> Democracy is about access No, not really. I know what you are trying to say, and I fully agree. We need to stop using "democracy" or "democratizing". Democracy, in it's purest form, is about mob rule --majority rule, if you want to say it in a softer/kinder way. "Democratizing" means giving a mob control of the thing, it does not mean making it accessible to all at all.

Democracy is not about mob rule, it's about a dialog. Sure, sometimes it becomes heated argumentation and noise, but it's not so much about "ruling". Lincoln in his union address in 1860 said: "I so adopt it because it furnishes a precise and an agreed starting point for a discussion between Republicans and that wing of the Democracy headed by Senator Douglas."

"Democratization" in a sense is about making things accessible for discussions. "Dictatorship" is the opposing term - things get "dictated" by a single entity - person, political force or a corporation.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#252

Post by MrJohz »

z3c0 wrote: post #238
stillpointlab wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe AI can be huge here. Things like ADA are often mechanical (adding the correct attributes to the most important page elements). It is the perfect work to audit and fix using agents. It is a business opportunity as well. I worked at a company that paid for an audit before LLMs. There is tremendous cost savings possible here. I also wonder if WebMCP will be the ultimate final incarnation of this.

Using AI to close gaps in accessibility is like adding treads to your vehicle because society is too lazy to pave roads.

I think they were suggesting using AI to audit for accessibility, which is probably a better approach, and probably more effective than a lot of the basic accessibility checkers out there that work on a list of fairly simple rules and don't understand the context of what they're doing, so tend to give either very limited advice, or sometimes even offer bad advice.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#253

Post by z3c0 »

MrJohz wrote: post #252
z3c0 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using AI to close gaps in accessibility is like adding treads to your vehicle because society is too lazy to pave roads.

I think they were suggesting using AI to audit for accessibility, which is probably a better approach, and probably more effective than a lot of the basic accessibility checkers out there that work on a list of fairly simple rules and don't understand the context of what they're doing, so tend to give either very limited advice, or sometimes even offer bad advice.

Research and fallbacks would certainly be better. An 85% design, 15% algorithmic solution is probably the sweet "pobody's nerfect" spot, but a company using AI to solve accessibility is like selling rape whistles -- in a perfect world, your market is nonexistent.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#254

Post by keerthiko »

gramie wrote: post #177
rootedbox wrote: post #152

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

I had to keep accessibility in mind a lot in my previous job (web development for a university). The thing that I consistently found was that, the more accessible a website was, the better the experience for everyone , not just people with disabilities.

yep, the curb cut effect is a well-researched and documented phenomenon [0] across ADA development in all aspects of the world.

accessibility work isn't just about making things possible for folks with disabilities, it's about making things better for everyone.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_cut_effect

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#255

Post by jaggederest »

gramie wrote: post #177
rootedbox wrote: post #152

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

I had to keep accessibility in mind a lot in my previous job (web development for a university). The thing that I consistently found was that, the more accessible a website was, the better the experience for everyone , not just people with disabilities.

Some of the things we take for granted in UI/UX originated that way, like automatic hamburger menu hide/show (for very large zoom) and "scroll to content/top" buttons for screenreaders, which, if you've ever tried to read a recipe online are pretty critical. Captions on videos are also like that, although there you might share blame to them for enabling the poor sound mastering on things like, legendarily, Tenet, perhaps.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#256

Post by ozim »

There is much more to it.

For me personally it goes I like TUI/CMD for things I use as a daily driver, I know what I want to accomplish I know exactly what movements to do and clicking GUI items is just too slow.

Then there are GUI things that I don't use that often I need some kind of map, I don't to "read the fucking manual" every 3 months when I use it and I barely remember, but if I see it in GUI my memory will kick in. It also works for most new things better than TUI/CMD because for a new tool I don't want to invest my focus, I just want to find out how to be done with my things or just learn what it is, reading manual is not fastest way, fastest way is clicking around.

Nowadays we have 3rd mode namely "chat interface" I can just chat with whatever bot is integrated in the app or just chat with the bot to use the application for me. Command line utilities work like charm in that mode I can accomplish a lot by asking vague stuff to a bot that will make stuff for me in a ways I don't even have to know how or what.

But I do believe final form of interface is not "chat interface" alone. I do believe what Karpathy already outlined, that there will be specific interfaces for systems that will use GUI elements to make it clear for the user what is going on and will be faster to clear the information to the user instead of having user to read back text.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#257

Post by stillpointlab »

z3c0 wrote: post #238
stillpointlab wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe AI can be huge here. Things like ADA are often mechanical (adding the correct attributes to the most important page elements). It is the perfect work to audit and fix using agents. It is a business opportunity as well. I worked at a company that paid for an audit before LLMs. There is tremendous cost savings possible here. I also wonder if WebMCP will be the ultimate final incarnation of this.

Using AI to close gaps in accessibility is like adding treads to your vehicle because society is too lazy to pave roads.

I think people outside of enterprise have no idea the cost to audit and fix a massive website.

The law is a forcing function here. Lawsuits can and do happen when sites of a certain size fail to implement government-mandated laws. This is a good thing, IMO, but it only comes into force in the largest cases.

If there is a credible path to 1/10th the cost (while still providing liability insurance which is a critical piece) then that will likely encourage more enterprise to do it proactively, and will open the door for startups and mid-sized companies.

I have no idea why anyone would choose to see this as bad.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#258

Post by gblargg »

rootedbox wrote: post #152

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

That was my first thought, that a TUI is still a GUI. Close your eyes and explain how you can use a TUI from the keyboard. The only difference is what the display can render.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#259

Post by burnte »

dpark wrote: post #28
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a system macOS definitely has some holes in keyboard navigation, as well as a couple corners which are KB-navigable but the way to focus them is not immediately obvious. On the app level, keyboard navigability depends on the developer. If they take the time to dot their I's and cross their T's it's between decent and great, but if they don't care it'll be bad.

MacOS has intentional holes in keyboard support. You have to go into settings and turn on a config for keyboard navigation to reach all elements. Apple intends for most users to navigate with a mouse. It’s in the accessibility settings. https://support.apple.com/en-za/guide/mac-help/mchlc06d1059/...

I cannot think of a single reason these would be disabled by default other than Apple stubbornness.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#260

Post by winrid »

One of the pieces of software I sell is motorsports timing software [0], it has a GUI for newbs, but at the bottom of every window is a little bar that shows the list of shortcuts. People pick them up quickly!

And it's auto generated from the UI code. It still surprises me how many people just prefer the mouse anyway, though. But the option is there!

[0] https://sidewaysdata.com

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